Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19, Day 13

[Interested Bystander]

Thanks.
Seems plausible.
But then you would think forensics people would have done much testng on these...

I think we are all surprised that it wasn't discussed which leads me to believe that Nel is more interested in something bigger about which we have not yet heard.

 

[soozieqtips]

The person doing the video (and people posting it) made it as clear as they could that it was NOT a reconstruction. That was STRESSED. It was not mean to be, nor purported to be, a reconstruction. Just a comparison of noises.

It's value is simply to DEMONSTRATE that indeed a cricket bat hitting a door can produce a sound something like the sound of a gunshot. Nothing more than that was claimed.

It demonstrated that extremely clearly.

A comparison of noises that doesn't even attempt to recreate the events is pretty pointless. I watched the clip and acknowledged the sounds could sound similar (I don't own a gun nor have I ever watched cricket) so I wouldn't expect to differentiate as much as someone more experienced with those noises. But all the video has done is highlight that in a wide open field, a gun could sound similar to a bat (to untrained ears?). It hasn't established that the sounds could be mistaken for each other in an enclosed room while travelling to another enclosed building. So it's pointless (to me).

 

[Trooper]

I didn't think that ridiculous video demonstrated a darn thing , except (a) what stuff sounds like over one's computer.. it cant demonstrate what it sounds like live and at 4,500 feet above sea level on a summers night. It also demonstrated (b) that anyone can be willing and able to make a dingbat of themselves by attempting to portray a demonstration of something.

It is also (c) demonstrating that people can actually be willing to believe they are hearing a demonstration of the actual sounds of two objects.. one being hit, and one being fired.

 

[james83]

My gut feeling is Nel has something big next week and it involves the ipad(s)/iphone, the state's ipad testimony yesterday was bizarre, it seemed to aid the defence, there just has to be more to it.
Nel seemed very keen to push the fact that after the ipad was checked and was then handed over to the defence, something must be going on.

 

[Trooper]

anyways.. Roux hasn't promised to place this absurd video into evidence. What he HAS promised , he said to the court that he had it tested, he had the proof , that Oscar can and does scream like "a" woman.. Don't know if he can scream like Reeva with a shattered hipbone,.. but putting that aside.. this is one thing Roux made absolutely clear, he will produce this particular recording.


again. Bring a packed lunch for that little segment.

 

[steveml]

'that testimony' as you put it, was tendered in evidence PRECISELY because it relates to the illegal gun use, and illegal ammo use... Oscar is during this ONE trial facing FOUR charges.. it isn't solely about , (but mainly about ) the Murder of Reeva.. its 4 criminal charges run in conjunction in the same trial.. a simple reading of the reason Oscar is on trial can fix this misperception..

the witnesses who testified re the shooting in the restaurant, (Larena, the owners of Tasha restaurant, Darrin Fresco ) are testifying NOT to Oscars murder charge but to the gun charges he is also on trial for..

Darrin Fresco, Samantha 's testimony is DIRECTLY related to the illegal gun firing charge..

so of course this testimony should be allowed.. its also what he is charged with. its criminal charges in addition to premediated murder.. it would hardly be rational to propose that no evidence be presented against Oscar for criminal charges laid against him. is Oscar THAT special??? don't think so. Every attorney I know would automatically expect evidence relating to the criminal charges Oscar is accused of.

You're not doing too bad with your reasoning there, however I think we need to be a little more honest with people on the forum regarding the additional firearms related charges. These were added to the Reeva murder case for one reason only - so witnesses could be brought in to discredit OP's character. Without those charges the witnesses would have been unable to appear, due to the incidents being totally unrelated. Nel used a very clever, but very effective method of showing how you can introduce character witnesses to a trial, when they shouldn't really be there. The defense do actually still feel that this evidence was inadmissible, but that's something the judge will have to decide.

Lets remember, the restaurant owners didn't press any charges, they let the matter go. The people in the car with OP didn't press charges. It's not by a miraculous coincidence that these people just remembered these incidents before OP's trial and though 'oh yes, I'd forgotten about that, I'd better press charges'. Nel pressed charges on behalf of the state so he could bring these people into court.

As it happens, I'm on the side of Nel and am glad he used this technique, as I believe character witnesses to previous incidents can be useful. I also think the people should have reported these incidents at the time. In hindsight, his license may have been revoked.

 

[shane13]

I think we are all surprised that it wasn't discussed which leads me to believe that Nel is more interested in something bigger about which we have not yet heard.

Well I thought of that too, but then one would think forensics people would have commented on the testing they did of these 2 bloodied regions.

As it stands now, the judge could say Pros. showed those bloodied regions, but did nothing further so she has to discount them, which again makes it look absurd to have beeh shown in the first place.

So once again, we just ahve to wait till state's final summary.

 

[steveml]

And... this discussion we are having about whether it is reasonable for OP to imagine an intruder in the toilet etc is all moot as far as the trial is concerned (so far). Like I say.... the State are not presenting any argument about this one way or the other, and so it is NOT something the Judge will consider... as things stand. As far as the State's case goes (so far) there was no intruder. Not even one that OP imagined. They are just arguing the facts around OP chasing Reeva into the toilet and shooting her.

Totally agree. It's pointless us discussing something that even both Nel or Roux aren't contesting.

 

[Trooper]

You're not doing too bad with your reasoning there, however I think we need to be a little more honest with people on the forum regarding the additional firearms related charges. These were added to the Reeva murder case for one reason only - so witnesses could be brought in to discredit OP's character. Without those charges the witnesses would have been unable to appear, due to the incidents being totally unrelated. Nel used a very clever, but very effective method of showing how you can introduce character witnesses to a trial, when they shouldn't really be there. The defense do actually still feel that this evidence was inadmissible, but that's something the judge will have to decide.

Lets remember, the restaurant owners didn't press any charges, they let the matter go. The people in the car with OP didn't press charges. It's not by a miraculous coincidence that these people just remembered these incidents before OP's trial and though 'oh yes, I'd forgotten about that, I'd better press charges'. Nel pressed charges on behalf of the state so he could bring these people into court.

As it happens, I'm on the side of Nel and am glad he used this technique, as I believe character witnesses to previous incidents can be useful. I also think the people should have reported these incidents at the time. In hindsight, his license may have been revoked.

BBM...

that's a bold claim!!.. the charges were bought against him because they relate to Oscars charge of premeditated murder. For the simple fact that in these instances , he fired a gun without warning in the presence of other people and possibly at other people ... Just like he murdered Reeva..

not only did he fire a gun at those events, he didn't need any provocation in one instance ( the restaurant ) and in the other, he was needled by the police delaying his journey .

the owners of Tashas should have reported it. they would have got a slapped wrist. Darrin should have reported it He would have got a slapped wrist. ( he got immunity for lying about it and taking the blame for it ) . Samantha would have got a slapped wrist for not reporting it.

If it was only character , the police could have bought in all the people who he terrified by driving over the speed limit with a passenger, the girl he slammed the door into at a party, the oh you get my drift, though..

it wasn't about his character.. the defence will bring in the stuff about his character.. the prosecution has no stake in that, but they do have a stake in what previous circumstances Oscar has fired a gun around or at people.

 

[Trooper]

' however I think we need to be a little more honest with people on the forum'

couldn't agree more, and I look forward to your demonstration of same.

 

[MeeBee]

Totally agree. It's pointless us discussing something that even both Nel or Roux aren't contesting.

It's (sort of) pointless now, but like I said, if the judge rejects the state's version of premeditation, then Oscar's story will come into play as she will have, by default, accepted Oscar's version of events and rule accordingly (not guilty because he had a reasonable fear for his life, guilty of murder, or guilty of culpable homicide). So it makes sense to talk about it.

 

[G.bng]

It can sometimes take a whole day.

A day to reach her verdict or a day for her to read it ?

My understanding is that it will likely take weeks between analysis and consideration of the evidence and redacting and correcting the statement of reasons.

 

[Trooper]

A day to reach her verdict or a day for her to read it ?

My understanding is that it will likely take weeks between analysis and consideration of the evidence and redacting and correcting the statement of reasons.

it can sometimes take a day to read it.


she will be keeping up with analysis and deduction , redacting and so on, which is where her assessors come into play.. their job.. you can see them noting noting noting , they rarely look up unless its photos or artifacts.. when the bat was passed to her, she passed it to the assessors.. they do the assisting of assessing the judgment.


they are qualified for this position. they aren't just clerks.. she has a clerk in front of her, the assessors are her right and left hand, so to speak in the matter of reaching a verdict.

 

[Trooper]

come the last day of the trial, and the last witness and the last word by the defence and the prosecutor.. the judge will be up to speed I'd expect the verdict in a matter of days. . highly likely to be one day..

 

[Trooper]

the gun and ammo charges will most likely adjudged and verdict delivered the next day.. that's about the probable time span for those ones..

it is at this point, its possible. its not improbable, that Oscar will be kept in custody on those 3 particular charges , if guilty, until the verdict of the premeditated murder is delivered.. I do think that is possible. If not guilty on the gun/ammo stuff, then .. he waits around at Uncle Arnolds for the delivery of the pm murder verdict.

very uncomfortable day, or days , I would think..

 

[steveml]

BBM...

that's a bold claim!!.. the charges were bought against him because they relate to Oscars charge of premeditated murder. For the simple fact that in these instances , he fired a gun without warning in the presence of other people and possibly at other people ... Just like he murdered Reeva..

not only did he fire a gun at those events, he didn't need any provocation in one instance ( the restaurant ) and in the other, he was needled by the police delaying his journey .

the owners of Tashas should have reported it. they would have got a slapped wrist. Darrin should have reported it He would have got a slapped wrist. ( he got immunity for lying about it and taking the blame for it ) . Samantha would have got a slapped wrist for not reporting it.

If it was only character , the police could have bought in all the people who he terrified by driving over the speed limit with a passenger, the girl he slammed the door into at a party, the oh you get my drift, though..

it wasn't about his character.. the defence will bring in the stuff about his character.. the prosecution has no stake in that, but they do have a stake in what previous circumstances Oscar has fired a gun around or at people.

I think you may be allowing your preconceived outcome of the case to be very selective here. There are very strict guidelines regarding unrelated crime witnesses. The charges regarding the gun handling are unrelated to Reeva's murder, whether you like it or not.

It's common knowledge amongst all the lawyers following this case that these unrelated charges were brought in purely to introduce character witnesses that otherwise wouldn't be allowed, so much so that nobody's even talking about it now. Take those charges away from Reeva's murder case, and do you honestly think for one second that these people could stand as witnesses? Not a chance in a million. Unrelated case - would be thrown out before it even reached court. Have a look round at the early lawyer feeds. Perhaps they're all wrong? I look forward to you telling them that it's a bold claim.

 

[steveml]

the gun and ammo charges will most likely adjudged and verdict delivered the next day.. that's about the probable time span for those ones..

it is at this point, its possible. its not improbable, that Oscar will be kept in custody on those 3 particular charges , if guilty, until the verdict of the premeditated murder is delivered.. I do think that is possible. If not guilty on the gun/ammo stuff, then .. he waits around at Uncle Arnolds for the delivery of the pm murder verdict.

very uncomfortable day, or days , I would think..

Where is the source of your information regarding the slapped wrist punishment for discharging a gun in a public place? If that's so, and it's such a minor offence, what's the point of charging him now? You've tried to outline the seriousness of the charge, and why it's relative to Reeva's case, then go on to say he'd only get a slapped wrist. Bit of an own goal there.

Re: Verdict times. Nobody knows, not even the judge.

 

[Trooper]

its not unknown for lawyers to be horribly wrong.. that's why lawyers lose cases.. not all lawyers are winners, and certainly no lawyer anywhere in any legal system on earth has won every case he/she prosecuted or defended.. Maybe in the old Russian system, and probably in the current Chinese system, but Oscar doesn't have a Russian or Chinese lawyer and isn't being prosecuted in China or Russia . Sometimes.. its not often, a Chinese lawyer in the CCCP does win a case for the defence. Sometimes,i on more occasions it happens in Russia. However.. Oscar isn't burdened with these problems.. HIs problem is in South Africa.

what we will know is. among so many other things, is how wrong or how right they were in regard to this case, when Judge Masipa brings down her verdict.. and then these lawyers wont need me to tell them they made a bold claim. they will be telling each other. I wont be able to be heard over the shouting of this.. So make sure you return to those websites you referenced after the verdict.. It will be full of lawyers accusing boldness, and claiming boldness.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Something just occurred to me about OP version of events .
RS bladder was virtually empty so we know she must have gone to the toilet some time just before she died which means she would likely have wiped herself with tissue and then flushed the toilet .If that is the case the noise of a flushing toilet would have been very obvious . If she hadn't flushed it then there should be forensic evidence of that ?
If the toilet bowl was clean except for blood then surely he can't expect us to believe that he still thought it was an intruder in there using and flushing a toilet ?

 

[Viper]

anyways.. Roux hasn't promised to place this absurd video into evidence. What he HAS promised , he said to the court that he had it tested, he had the proof , that Oscar can and does scream like "a" woman.. Don't know if he can scream like Reeva with a shattered hipbone,.. but putting that aside.. this is one thing Roux made absolutely clear, he will produce this particular recording.


again. Bring a packed lunch for that little segment.

Roux "promises" a lot of things, that in no way means that he will actually do any of them. IMO He is the epitome of the sleezy lawyer that you have alway heard about, I guess that is why so many people naively relate to him and perceive that he is "winning" when in fact he is just making a fool of himself out if desperation.