Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I don't think he was allowed. I think there might just be something incriminating on it and it was nowhere to be seen when the police turned up. Whether he gave it to one of his family to "look after" we shall never know. At some stage he handed it to his Defence Team who brought it up at the Bail Hearing which unfortunately made Botha look rather silly.

I also believe that the phone which was not delibaretely not handed to police , was thr one OP made the calls and that's why maybe he put into the scene the ones not used for months.

 

[james83]

But what I'm saying is I don't imagine that the panel being hit or kicked would produce a sound like a gunshot at all, especially if it was kicked. It would sound more hollow and tinny. Stipp says the sounds were the same. Either what he heard was two volleys of shots or gunshots and bat strikes. I don't think it stands to reason what he heard was the panel breaking.

I do acknowledge the inconsistency in the events and Osacr's rebelling of them.

Difficult to comment on what it would have sounded like, i'm just putting it forward as a possibility.
You can not say with any certainty that the gunshots and bat strikers sounded the same, how have you come to that conclusion?.

 

[anagrammy]

I am not discounting anything here.....I am just curious......does not ones bladder empty after death........just curious as I said....

Also when terrified like being shot at by a lunatic.

 

[LemonMousse]

You went back to sleep perfectly well because you called the police and subsequently saw her being taken off in an ambulance. Exactly, you'd done the right thing by calling the police and seeing the situation become under control. That's the normal thing to do, and I would expect you to sleep fine.

The Berger's didn't do this. They didn't get anybody out. They didn't make a mistake thinking they called somebody out who would be here to help the woman with the blood-curdling screams. They called a wrong number and then simply went back to sleep. It doesn't necessarily make them bad people, but I'm a bit reluctant to accept how upset Ms Berger really was when she tells me how traumatised she was that morning.

No, that's not really fair. They didn't simply go back to sleep. Johnson was sufficiently disturbed by the whole thing that he was up measuring for new security doors around 4am.

But OK, maybe Berger is made of sterner stuff - so what?

Let's remember what they actually said. They heard a woman screaming and a man's voice. They heard the woman scream for help and then the man call for help in a much less distressed fashion. Berger suggested he may have been mocking the woman, Johnson said he sounded a bit embarrassed as if he'd been locked up somewhere.

They were both convinced that they'd heard a break in. They felt that the woman could only have screamed like that if her life was threatened and they hoped the man hadn't been shot dead in front of her.

Now what's really, really interesting about them is WHY they went to the police via their solicitor.

It was because when they heard the story that OP was putting about they realised that it was completely and entirely inconsistent with what they heard. To them there was no possible way that OP mistook Reeva for an intruder when they had heard her screaming for her life.

So we can claim she embellished her testimony, or behaved oddly by not calling the police as much as we like but it's really irrelevant when you realise that it's BECAUSE that's what they heard that they even wanted to contact the police in the first place.

The only other possible explanation is that they didn't like OP and were willing to perjure themselves to contradict his story.

The Berger, Johnson and Stipp testimony is very powerful and extremely hard to dismiss. This is why Roux needed to "attack their credibility" (as he admitted in open court was necessary with some witnesses - accidentally, I think) and why he's had to formulate the ridiculous defence that Oscar screams like a woman....except when he's calling for help like a man.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

My immediate thought is that something substantial has just been revealed to both sides and it is admissible, so they both need time to prepare their arguments and witnesses to testify. I do not believe, in this first ever live television high profile murder trial, they wound reschedule adding such a large break in testimony right in the middle of the trial if it were not a major new development. My hunch is that it is something related to the phone.

Thanks
I was thinking that may be the case .

 

[MeeBee]

Difficult to comment on what it would have sounded like, i'm just putting it forward as a possibility.
You can not say with any certainty that the gunshots and bat strikers sounded the same, how have you come to that conclusion?.

I didn't say I came to the conclusion that the bat and gunshots sound exactly the same, with any kind of certainty. I said it stands to reason that if Stipp heard anything it is more likely to have been the bat hitting the door over the panel breaking given he said the sounds sounded the same to him.

 

[Viper]

I believe that the test results will show that a cricket bat striking a door, in that bathroom of that house, cannot be heard from inside any of the witnesses houses. I believe they only heard the gunshot noises. I believe many folks here have pointed out the differences in the types of sounds the two make and the way that they do or do not travel; others have commented on how sounds are absorbed by the materials like the walls, furniture, floors, and windows. I wish someone would make a video enactment of the two, from inside a home on the 2nd level in a bathroom. Not being snarky, I really do.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I suspect the only person he can and will ask about the panel is Oscar. It's a very curious thing. There's no evidence the damage even happened that evening though, seeing as Oscar is prone to fits of rage. I agree, it does look quite a flimsy piece of metal.

Yes that would be his likely defence so the live in cleaner and handyman should be able to narrow the timeframe ,they are a little hard of hearing apparently
( sorry for the sarcasm ) but hopefully they are not blind as well .
Looking at the house I would say he was the sort to instruct staff to deal with any damaged things immediately , if not why does he have them .

 

[MeeBee]

Yes that would be his likely defence so the live in cleaner and handyman should be able to narrow the timeframe ,they are a little hard of hearing apparently
( sorry for the sarcasm ) but hopefully they are not blind as well .
Looking at the house I would say he was the sort to instruct staff to deal with any damaged things immediately , if not why does he have them .

Good point that he's probably the kind of person that would want things fixed immediately. It could have happened recently and he hadn't had time. The only thing I just cannot figure out is the jeans. I have no earthly idea what they could be doing there. I imagine all these questions will be put to Oscar and it will be interesting to hear what he has to say.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Good point that he's probably the kind of person that would want things fixed immediately. It could have happened recently and he hadn't had time. The only thing I just cannot figure out is the jeans. I have no earthly idea what they could be doing there. I imagine all these questions will be put to Oscar and it will be interesting to hear what he has to say.

Yes the jeans have puzzled me . In the end I favour one of two options.
He threw them out in a fit of rage and shouted "get out of my house "or she had thrown them out so as not to alert OP that she was going to get the hell out of there .
I think that when someone isn't being totally truthful they make there actions seem believable by fitting them into a statement but in a different context ,I know other people have figured the same . OP could not be sure what witness's might or might not have heard so will be covering his back.
I did read reports that her car was unlocked and the drivers door open have you seen any crime scene photos or reports of that too ?

 

[MeeBee]

Yes the jeans have puzzled me . In the end I favour one of two options.
He threw them out in a fit of rage and shouted "get out of my house "or she had thrown them out so as not to alert OP that she was going to get the hell out of there .
I think that when someone isn't being totally truthful they make there actions seem believable by fitting them into a statement but in a different context ,I know other people have figured the same . OP could not be sure what witness's might or might not have heard so will be covering his back.
I did read reports that her car was unlocked and the drivers door open have you seen any crime scene photos or reports of that too ?

I have thought of the possibility that OP has tailored his story to fit around the evidence and witness statements.

I have not seen any such photos. I've seen things like this being mentioned here and there but don't remember the testimony. Has it come out during trial.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I believe that the test results will show that a cricket bat striking a door, in that bathroom of that house, cannot be heard from inside any of the witnesses houses. I believe they only heard the gunshot noises. I believe many folks here have pointed out the differences in the types of sounds the two make and the way that they do or do not travel; others have commented on how sounds are absorbed by the materials like the walls, furniture, floors, and windows. I wish someone would make a video enactment of the two, from inside a home on the 2nd level in a bathroom. Not being snarky, I really do.

I think I am going to listen to the testimony of the forensics guy again with regard to what exactly he said about the damaged door . I still have a feeling the cricket bat was before the gun shots and the removing of the panels was after . I also think that unless you were close it would be unlikely that you would hear a couple a swings of the cricket bat on the door .
Also wonder if there could have been two sets of gun shots one a couple of rounds out of the window and one into the toilet to scare her and maybe not expecting to hit her and then some more to finish her off after seeing what he did . ( just playing with possible scenarios here not saying this is necessarily what I believe )

 

[MeeBee]

I think I am going to listen to the testimony of the forensics guy again with regard to what exactly he said about the damaged door . I still have a feeling the cricket bat was before the gun shots and the removing of the panels was after . I also think that unless you were close it would be unlikely that you would hear a couple a swings of the cricket bat on the door .

Stipp was closer to Oscar's house than the microphone was in the YT demo, which was situated to be more around the Burger's place, I think (could be wrong).I think there is a distinct possibility that he did hear the bat hitting the door.

 

[LemonMousse]

But what I'm saying is I don't imagine that the panel being hit or kicked would produce a sound like a gunshot at all, especially if it was kicked. It would sound more hollow and tinny. Stipp says the sounds were the same. Either what he heard was two volleys of shots or gunshots and bat strikes. I don't think it stands to reason what he heard was the panel breaking.

I do acknowledge the inconsistency in the events and Osacr's rebelling of them.

"Either what he heard was two volleys of shots or gunshots and bat strikes".

This is a false dichotomy because it assumes that one of the set of bangs must have been the cricket bat.

We shouldn't be assuming a single thing. The only evidence that any of the bangs were bat sounds is because OP says so.

The evidence of the door itself is not supportive of being smashed down by a cricket bat. There are no dents in it, just two very minor marks where the veneer has been gouged out. The actual breaking of the door was caused by the panels being prised out, either by hands or the twisting of the bat.

I'd certainly agree that the door was broken open after the gunshots, but this is not evidence that the door was smashed in with a cricket bat. Smashing a door in and prising out the panels is a very, very different thing indeed.

If you look at the YT vid you can see what happens the one time we see the guy manage to hit the door panel with the cricket bat - he helpfully points it out for us. He's dented the door.

Where are the dents on OP's door? And there would simply have to be if it had taken four enormous whacks, loud enough to resemble gunshots (a sound, lest we forget, that breaks the sound barrier and can permanently damage hearing) to the ears of three separate witnesses. Not forgetting, of courses, that all three were adamant that the shots they heard were too rapid to be a cricket bat in a door.

Other than OP's say so, there is precisely no evidence that that cricket bat smashed down that door. Made contact with it yes....but smashed? No.

We also have the problem of Dr Stipp clearly hearing a male voice calling for help from the direction of Oscar's balcony after the 3.17 shots.

Oscar says the first thing he did, before breaking down the door, was call for help from the balcony. Stipp can even identify exactly when he heard that - it was when he was on his own balcony talking to security and that can ONLY have been after the 3.17 shots.

If we believe Stipp, and I think we can, then Oscar is lying. He shouted for help after all the bangs stopped.

I agree that kicking the panel wouldn't sound as loud as a gunshot, either.

The first bangs are a mystery Nel is adamant he has an explanation for. We shall see

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I have thought of the possibility that OP has tailored his story to fit around the evidence and witness statements.

I have not seen any such photos. I've seen things like this being mentioned here and there but don't remember the testimony. Has it come out during trial.

I don't think I have heard anything about the car during the trial and have struggled to find the press report that I originally read it in .
Two scenarios that ran threw my mind about it was that Reeva had got away to her car and was dragged back in to the house or that OP was going to dump her somewhere in her car or if I am being really generous OP was going to take her to hospital . Again none of this is confirmed it was just my thoughts when I read an article that could be totally false which is why I have asked here .
This could be linked with why he said in his statement that he had gone down and opened the door ,you see it could already have been open before the shooting . His witness statement probably has a lot of things it in it which just cover what really went on .

 

[Viper]

I think I am going to listen to the testimony of the forensics guy again with regard to what exactly he said about the damaged door . I still have a feeling the cricket bat was before the gun shots and the removing of the panels was after . I also think that unless you were close it would be unlikely that you would hear a couple a swings of the cricket bat on the door .

Yes please do listen again and come back to discuss, you are very sharp so no telling what I or others missed!

Importantly he determined that the shots were 1st and the bat was 2nd. The DT supporters take that as supporting OPs story. But the testimony was 2 strikes leaving little in the way of damage. But the witness did confirm that the bat strikes could have been just to scare Reeva. OP struck the door twice before the murder to scare Reeva, and after the murder he wedged the tip of the bat into one of the marks and pried the slender piece of panel loose. Since it lays inside he obviously pushed it through. The other panels were obviously pried off by hand as well. So bang..... bang, bang, bang with no cricket bat sounds by most witnesses (perhaps Stipp heard them?) is what the state is laying out, as I understand it, and is appears to be supported by the ear witnesses.

All if the detailed bantering here about what witness heard what is beginning to confuse me! :smile:

 

[Danta]

If I had to break down a door I would not slam it hard with the cricket bat but hold the bat more like a battering ram. Because the door is flat smacking it with any kind of bat would not be as effective as the battering ram movement. This movement would not make loud banging sounds but would smash the panel out.

To picture this recall the way law enforcement opens a door, the stabbing, spear motion with something that would break the wood. The wood grain splits in the panel, does not just go forward into the bathroom like it was a baseball or some object. You have to split the grain first.

 

[MeeBee]

I don't think I have heard anything about the car during the trial and have struggled to find the press report that I originally read it in .
Two scenarios that ran threw my mind about it was that Reeva had got away to her car and was dragged back in to the house or that OP was going to dump her somewhere in her car or if I am being really generous OP was going to take her to hospital . Again none of this is confirmed it was just my thoughts when I read an article that could be totally false which is why I have asked here .
This could be linked with why he said in his statement that he had gone down and opened the door ,you see it could already have been open before the shooting . His witness statement probably has a lot of things it in it which just cover what really went on .

There were a lot of things reported early on that were later found to be untrue so I'd take it with a grain of salt. I also heard that Oscar's car was running and the door was open, possibly him preparing to take her to the hospital. It's possible the early reports simply got this wrong.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Yes please do listen again and come back to discuss, you are very sharp so no telling what I or others missed!

Importantly he determined that the shots were 1st and the bat was 2nd. The DT supporters take that as supporting OPs story. But the testimony was 2 strikes leaving little in the way of damage, so those were made first and likely not heard by anyone but Stipp. After the murder OP wedged the tip of the bat into one of the marks and pried the slender piece of panel loose. Since it lays inside he obviously pushed it through. The other panels were obviously pried off by hand as well. So bang..... bang, bang, bang with no more cricket bat sounds is what the state is laying out and is supported by the ear witnesses.

Yes that was my understanding and I think someone else on here thought the same . I think he knew where Reeva was before he shot her because he could see through the crack in the door .
I keep trying to be impartial but really struggle with what we are seeing so far but as I said yesterday I will listen to the defence as well .

 

[LemonMousse]

Stipp was closer to Oscar's house than the microphone was in the YT demo, which was situated to be more around the Burger's place, I think (could be wrong).I think there is a distinct possibility that he did hear the bat hitting the door.

Honestly, I'm not being argumentative, but microphones are designed to record sounds, not determine how loud they are in relation to each other. There are settings inside that balance out sounds and bring them into line.

You need very high-tech specialist equipment to record sounds and try to get a an approximation of "loudness". That's why microphones are not used for this purpose - decibel meters are.

A cricket bat in a door has been recorded at 114db....and that was really whacking it. A gun is at least 130 db, this is 10 times louder. Most guns are more like 140 db, this is about 24 times louder than a cricket bat on a door.

On the YT vid, did the gun sound 10 times louder? No, that's because the microphone balanced out the sounds as it's designed to.