Trial Discussion Thread #12 - 14.03.24, Day 14

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I have missed the start of why people are agonizing over "rabbit" and "rabid" :)

I may well be on the wrong track, since I don't know what people are talking about... but that wont stop me :floorlaugh:

To "rabbit" is a common British expression... meaning talk.. usually incessantly... as in: "She rabbited on for hours" (meaning talked on and on)

"Rabid" is the adjective from "rabies" when used as descriptive of people it means raging, insane perhaps.

Rumpole Reeva's cell phone text history was talked about in court today, that is where the question of rabbit is coming from. Here is a link with the texts for you to read, please give us your thoughts:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/oscar-pistorius-trial-whatsapp-messages/
 
http://www.news.com.au/world/reeva-...ius-text-message/story-fndir2ev-1226863834472

Reeva Steenkamp Sometimes ‘Scared Of’ Oscar Pistorius: Text Message
MARCH 25, 2014

OSCAR Pistorius’ girlfriend told the athlete she was sometimes scared of him and complained about what she described as his short temper and jealousy in the weeks before he killed her, according to phone messages revealed at the Olympian’s murder trial on Monday...
 
Sure it did. Whatever scenario you want to come up with, use that formula and you'll know my answer.
A guessing game? Okay. Since OP is a proven liar, he will never admit he knowingly signed anything he knew was a lie. If he'll never admit he knowingly signed anything he knew was a lie, you'll argue that he must therefore have been mistaken, which means he can never be guilty in your opinion. Mrs Stipp DID admit her error which is why you were able to get on her case and call her a liar.

Got it!
 
Rumpole Reeva's cell phone text history was talked about in court today, that is where the question of rabbit is coming from. Here is a link with the texts for you to read, please give us your thoughts:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/oscar-pistorius-trial-whatsapp-messages/
From the link:
RS to OP: It's like I see rabbit things in your house and when we go places you take pics of them everywhere. For me I'm thinking who do you have that connection with? And the same things will play on your mind. At the end of the day this is now not then


The quote seems clear to me. As "Gavel Rash" suggests. Just he liked rabbits and things rabbit related.

The rabbit has to refer to something Pistorius held close...a nick name from his mum perhaps? so he would buy rabbity things as icons of his love for her...Reeva didn't know why...didn't ask either...but it was a text message.

Personally... having bought my kids pet rabbits at one time... they are horrible smelly creatures who eat their own poo.

I much prefer Kittehs
kitty_zpsf372927e.gif





ETA:
Reading that... I should clarify... "horrible smelly creatures who ate their own poo" was the pet rabbits, not my kids :floorlaugh:
 
A guessing game? Okay. Since OP is a proven liar, he will never admit he knowingly signed anything he knew was a lie. If he'll never admit he knowingly signed anything he knew was a lie, you'll argue that he must therefore have been mistaken, which means he can never be guilty in your opinion. Mrs Stipp DID admit her error which is why you were able to get on her case and call her a liar.

Got it!

Not sure you got it yet.

If there are knowing lies in Oscar's statement, then the State needs to bring proof of such lies. So far they haven't IMO, and you're right that I'm not going to say his account is a lie until I have proof of that.

I said Mrs Stipp is lying because we have proof that she lied. That has nothing to do with Oscar's truthfulness or any other witness. I'm not favoring any witness over any other.
 
From the link:



The quote seems clear to me. As "Gavel Rash" suggests. Just he liked rabbits and things rabbit related.



Personally... having bought my kids pet rabbits at one time... they are horrible smelly creatures who eat there own poo.

I much prefer Kittehs
kitty_zpsf372927e.gif

Thank you for finally clearing this up!!!! To me it makes no sense, I guess that really doesn't matter. But rabbits??? I hate them! Used to think they were cute, until I bought a house and tried to plant a flower garden, then they looked very evil to my eyes!!! :smile:
 
take away from today...Monday March 24...another block buster 3-4 hour court day...Mrs. Stip (not sure on spelling) says it is just another domestic homicide but husband wants to go check in case kids are involved. Wow....just another domestic homicide...still amazed at the lifestyle there.
 
Intentional/ premeditated....big difference in sentencing apparently

Not sure I understand.

SA criminal law has only two charges pertinent to killing a human being, "intentional", i.e. murder, and "negligent", i.e. "culpable homicide". So, yes a big difference in sentencing between "murder" and "culpable homicide" but there can be none between "intentional" and "premeditated" murder not least because under SA law "premeditated" is included within "intentional murder". It's the same in the UK, whereby "murder" is premeditated murder, the most serious charge, and "voluntary" and "involuntary" manslaughter as lesser charges, (I presume more or less murder 1, 2 and 3 in the US).

From my readings for all three countries "intention" is key. In the UK, the same as in the US, if a perpetrator intends to kill someone but kills another by mistake it is charged under the most serious, i.e. "murder" in the UK, murder 1 in the US, despite there neither being "premeditation" nor "intention" to kill that person. The position in SA gets there via a different logic, i.e. in SA the mere fact that death is a "foreseeable possibility" of an act is sufficient for a charge of "intentional murder" so intending to kill one person but killing another by mistake would, it seems, be included under murder.

In all, from my readings at least, I can't see how OP can ever get out of murder, because:

1) even if the state failed to prove BARD OP knew Reeva was behind the door,
2) even if the state failed to prove BARD OP's intention was to kill the burglar/intruder and not just scare them as he claims​

unless in SA it is lawful to shoot/kill a burglar/intruder OP would still be left with:

a) he shot at an intruder/burglar
b) death was a foreseeable consequence shooting through a closed door
c) he had less deadly options available to him (unreasonable response)
d) he went towards the danger he claims to have been in fear of​

all of which, imo, can only add up to murder.
 
Thank you for finally clearing this up!!!! To me it makes no sense, I guess that really doesn't matter. But rabbits??? I hate them! Used to think they were cute, until I bought a house and tried to plant a flower garden, then they looked very evil to my eyes!!! :smile:

I spent ages building a snazzy designer "A frame" hutch with outdoor space and a cosy nesting box..... and bought the two kids a baby rabbit each... as you do for Christmas.
The Rabbits would ONLY go potty in the nesting box and rabbit pee and poo reeks!.. I ended up cleaning the thing out every day. They came to a sad end at the hands (mouth) of an intruder dog. It was sad the way they went.. but I was glad to be rid of them :)
 
You got a cough :wink:

It's a murder charge with premeditation - it allows the Judge to impose a longer sentence than would normally be possible. SA do not recognise a charge of premeditated murder so it has to be done this way. If they just wanted a murder charge, they may have even got this without the need for any witnesses (although they wouldn't do this of course). The state have decided to play for higher stakes in this one.

Finally I can see where our misunderstanding is coming from. I understand what you mean and you are correct but I think with the wrong explanation as there is no specific "premeditation" charge in SA criminal law. In SA there are only two charges for the unlawful killing of a person, "intentional killing", charged as "murder" which covers premeditation, and "negligent killing", charged as "culpable homicide". This is clear in OP's indictment where the charge is stated as "MURDER", and its description states:

"... the accused did unlawfully and intentionally kill a person, to wit, RS, a 29 year old female"

I have tried to set out my understanding of SA law in a fairly in depth post, (if you are interested it slotted in as post number 1129 on page 46 of the thread), so I can't repeat it again. I don't believe it is quite as simple as you say as, IMBW, but I think this case may end up being about "transferred intent/malice", which also exists in UK and US law, and about which I have done a bit of research.
 
Much too early in a relationship? When is it acceptable, then? After six months, a year?

My saying it was much too early in the relationship does not equate to my saying it is acceptable. Only that if at such an early stage "love" is already under such a "struggle" and OP is already picking on her faults when they hardly have had time to fully get to know each other, the relationship is not going to get any better and he is only going to get worse. But I think she was already realising that from her texts.
 
Not sure you got it yet.

If there are knowing lies in Oscar's statement, then the State needs to bring proof of such lies. So far they haven't IMO, and you're right that I'm not going to say his account is a lie until I have proof of that.

I said Mrs Stipp is lying because we have proof that she lied. That has nothing to do with Oscar's truthfulness or any other witness. I'm not favoring any witness over any other.

Well, I have my proof... I'm convinced. The long narrative which preambles with "unsure why I've decided to sit and write you first..." DTD JANUARY 27... that's all I need. The jealousy with this is RAW... and it doesn't surprise me one bit. People are drawn to models... and the way he described standing behind her... as she stroked the guys arm... , well, enough to flip his lid.

Case Closed. Lock em Up.

You?
 
take away from today...Monday March 24...another block buster 3-4 hour court day...Mrs. Stip (not sure on spelling) says it is just another domestic homicide but husband wants to go check in case kids are involved. Wow....just another domestic homicide...still amazed at the lifestyle there.


Shocker about Roux passing the torch on Stip. Partner clearly ineffective... Roux could have rattled her at least. What's rup with Roux? Something is rup, don't understand the strategy.
 
Then why tell security, who was just outside his door, that things were 'fine?'

If he wanted things to go quickly, he could have told them to come and help him transport her to the hospital.

And Stander didn't even phone until after Stipp had been there and tried to save Reeva. After seeing it was hopeless Stipp went outside where Stander was as well and phoned emergency but they told him he had to ring another number at which point, only then, did Stander phone for the ambulance.
 
Didn't OP ask Stander to phone an ambulance? An argument could be made it would take less time for Stander to call, discuss, give the address etc than for OP to do it in the state he was in. Then OP phoned Netcare.


I could've sworn I'd read somewhere, probably a tabloid though, that OP had given Stander his cell to call someone(will have to review Stipp's testimony to see if that's where I recall it from). If true, then that means Stander helped cover up evidence by not giving OP's cell up as evidence, correct? As for who the prosecution has yet to call, apparently two that they had originally hoped would testify had decided they didn't want to and hostile witnesses seldom help a case ime. Just wondering if those two were the Stander's?
 
I spent ages building a snazzy designer "A frame" hutch with outdoor space and a cosy nesting box..... and bought the two kids a baby rabbit each... as you do for Christmas.
The Rabbits would ONLY go potty in the nesting box and rabbit pee and poo reeks!.. I ended up cleaning the thing out every day. They came to a sad end at the hands (mouth) of an intruder dog. It was sad the way they went.. but I was glad to be rid of them :)

Hmm, we used to raise the fat juicy albino variety for food, never had one for a true pet, but I can attest to how rank their cages can get since cleaning them was one of my chores.:/
 
Not sure you got it yet.

If there are knowing lies in Oscar's statement, then the State needs to bring proof of such lies. So far they haven't IMO, and you're right that I'm not going to say his account is a lie until I have proof of that.

I said Mrs Stipp is lying because we have proof that she lied. That has nothing to do with Oscar's truthfulness or any other witness. I'm not favoring any witness over any other.

Hmm, I would have thought that OP's text about the shooting incident when he got his friend to cover for him would have been good enough for you to agree that his not guilty plea on that charge was a lie...

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/texts-reveal-reeva-s-fear-of-oscar-1.1665532#.UzA5koV28ts
"Angel, please don't say a thing to anyone. Darren told everyone it was his fault." This message from the athlete was most likely referring to the incident at the Tasha's restaurant where Pistorius accidentally discharged a firearm. His friend, Darren Fresco told management he had discharged the gun because Pistorius had asked us to.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/185695401/Full-document-%E2%80%93-Oscar-Pistorius-indictment
 
OP never said that he was trying to shoot the door, he said he was shooting at a person he believed was an armed intruder that intending to seriously injure or kill him and Reeva. So OP was shooting at a person, not just a door. The intention is to kill, not only did he fire a bullet at an unknown person hiding behind a door but he fired three more, that shows his intention was to kill because any reasonable person would not do that unless their intention was to kill. So if it is his intention to kill and he does kill then that is murder.

Hope that helps.

And you believe OP about an intruder... ;- )

Of course I know all of what you are saying, about believing there was an intruder, shooting at an intruder, shooting at an intruder behind a door, the intention of shooting at an intruder behind a door, as well as that OP is stuck with what he declared, but I was writing about a possible theory, one of my theories of what may have happened, not what OP says happened.

Do I really write and explain myself that badly? : - (
 
I think the defence will state that it was transferred from his hand after the shooting but as I said earlier the gunshot residue could have been on the switch before the shooting because OP goes to a shooting range and was once stopped at an airport because of gun shot residue .

Ah... comprendo !
 
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