Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[BabaJ]

This better?

For the rest of her amazing blog and tons of pics(warning-graphic images):

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

Hi, I have been following the engaging and passionate exchanges on the board. A lot of points to think about, it is also interesting to see different points of view.

Just with respect to the link above - I opened it and browsed through it and saw the following statement during Magena's testimony and wonder whether this was discussed <modsnip>

Also, I keep going back to another witness (I am not sure if it was the pathologist or the ballistic expert), who said that Reeva fell on the magazine rack after being hit in her hip. The she was shot in the head with her arms in a defensive position in front of her head. Why did she have her arms in front of her head while she lost balance and could not know that the next shot would be to her head? Would not be a natural reaction to try to break the fall and extend the arms down?

Any thoughts with respect to the above?

 

[DebinGA]

I think Darren may have embellished a little. Sam said they were all laughing afterwards, not just oscar.

Maybe an adrenaline fueled rush of relief having just survived a near-death experience. I doubt OP announced his intention beforehand.

 

[Duchy]

Can't say it's impossible, but never ever seen that. Not even in the movies, and they do exaggerate :smile:

I guess involuntary reaction is one of those court things that is used to explain away unknowns.

If an involuntary reaction can explain something like that, the defense would have no problem in suggesting that one of those bullets in the leg could certainly send you into a state of shock, and you would therefore not scream.

The unknown will probably remain the unknown unfortunately.

It wouldn't be an involuntary scream as loud as the witnesses say it was and sounding terrified.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

My gut feeling alongside the fabulous, detailed photos from Lisa is that the bedroom door scenario is crucial. Totally. Plus, the marks on the inside edge of the door where the locking mechanism is looks like they've been made with a cylindrical baseball bat . . . . . (Beside airgun rifle in bedroom)

That is, someone wedging it there, trying to frantically/hurriedly close it to prevent someone entering our to get them out. I believe this force/pressure may also have caused the massive crack down the door.

I believe this happened prior to the bathroom. Rifle also causing damage to downstairs window. Wait, was there ammo left for the air rifle, if it was fired off a few times first. Perhaps that's why he then had to use his parabellum for the bathroom shots??

Sorry for long post. Thoughts and ponderings . . .

Some of these things will come up during closing arguments or cross examination of OP

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Hi, I have been following the engaging and passionate exchanges on the board. A lot of points to think about, it is also interesting to see different points of view.

Just with respect to the link above - I opened it and browsed through it and saw the following statement during Magena's testimony and wonder whether this was discussed "....Nel then asks him if he was interested in seeing the position of the “5” cartridge cases on the scene, and he says yes that’s correct. There were only 4 bullet holes so why 5 cartridges? I wonder if Nel just misspoke or if there is something more we are yet to find out?....."[/I

Also, I keep going back to another witness (I am not sure if it was the pathologist or the ballistic expert), who said that Reeva fell on the magazine rack after being hit in her hip. The she was shot in the head with her arms in a defensive position in front of her head. Why did she have her arms in front of her head while she lost balance and could not know that the next shot would be to her head? Would not be a natural reaction to try to break the fall and extend the arms down?

Any thoughts with respect to the above?

Will read up on this tomorrow as it is very interesting news to me .

 

[Trooper]

I wonder if OP knows his attorney (Webber) answered, "We have no choice" to the question of whether he'll testify. Not exactly a confidence builder imo.

agreed.. Oscar didn't take the witness stand in his bail hearing. He merely got by on his affidavit, which has since been altered in at least 2 respects..

( two fans now. originally one )

( not a squeak from Reeva from 10pm .. now , he says, he spoke to her a few minutes before the fan faffing )

or to put it another way, he lied on his bail affidavit. .. he didn't go back and correct it next day, for example.. his alterations have come for the trial.

big new adventure for Oscar.. since his 'motive ' for shooting is subjective.. (not objective) , his deep terror, only the subject can testify to it.

 

[Viper]

Hi, I have been following the engaging and passionate exchanges on the board. A lot of points to think about, it is also interesting to see different points of view.

Just with respect to the link above - I opened it and browsed through it and saw the following statement during Magena's testimony and wonder whether this was discussed <modsnip>

Also, I keep going back to another witness (I am not sure if it was the pathologist or the ballistic expert), who said that Reeva fell on the magazine rack after being hit in her hip. The she was shot in the head with her arms in a defensive position in front of her head. Why did she have her arms in front of her head while she lost balance and could not know that the next shot would be to her head? Would not be a natural reaction to try to break the fall and extend the arms down?

Any thoughts with respect to the above?

Four casings found. One (bullet) cartridge was ejected by forensics to render the gun safe.

After hitting Reeva in the hip with the first shot OP moved closer to the door and to the right, there is a pause before the next three shots and I am sure OP was saying something and getting his aim in Reeva's voice while Reeva was screaming in pain, Reeva leaned her head slightly forward and covered her head with her hands, her arms obviously raised as well, using just her own hands and arms to shield herself, they were all she had to use at that point.

OP was aiming at Reeva's voice (her mouth) therefore her head. Reeva did not know where she would be hit next, but her killer knew what he was aiming at.

 

[MeeBee]

Do you think that the reason we haven't heard a transcript of the netcare call is because they did indeed tell him to carry her downstairs .
I still can't get over the fact that her dragged her out of the toilet instead of lifting her gently . He is a very fit and strong man despite his disability.
I figure if they didn't he was moving her to cover up the crime scene or dare I say move her ......
Again the damaged door/ bath panel and tiles should have been clarified by his staff.IMO

If you look at the toilet room it was very small. I imagine it would have been difficult for him to pick her up in there so he dragged her out first and then picked her up.

 

[BlueShoe]

Just makes no sense to me, if he thought he was going to get shot surely he stands at the bedroom doorway and waits gun drawn while getting Reeva to call security, no one would walk towards danger if they believed an armed intruder was in there house.

I absolutely agree with this. Especially someone who is terrified of intruders would not walk to a spot that makes him a target while shouting "Get out of my house," so that the "intruder" could zero in on his voice. Makes no sense to me.

 

[G.bng]

Thanks. I have a recording studio and work with decibels. You are indeed correct regarding the possible differing conditions, however the one aspect you're missing is that sound waves do not gain amplitude. They lose amplitude as they travel. There are times when sound will travel further than others, but the closer you are to that sound source the louder it will be.

I can believe sound waves don't gain amplitude but I disagree that the closer they are they will always be louder because from my experience they can sound about the same even though you are some distance away. As I said, you should visit my friend's house when conditions are right as you can hear voices in the neighbouring village as if on the next balcony to yours. Agreed a phenomenon, but it happens. And people at the same distance and even much nearer on the opposite side to where the wind blows may not hear the sounds heard on the other side at all. Try talking to someone beside you in the midst of a storm with gusts of wind of 70mph like we had here last autumn. If you are on the opposite side to the gust you either can't hear them even if they shout or if you do hear them, the words are broken and the voice muffled as if under the bedclothes.

In any case, witnesses have not claimed they heard the sounds louder than x, y or z, they have simply claimed the shots, screams, shouts or whatever were "loud". Loud is subjective. Loud to me could be soft to you. Loud at night is louder than during the day. Loud when I have a headache or need to sleep can be soft if I am feeling fine. I am extremely sensitive to noise and depending on wind direction and other parameters, I and my neighbour can often hear the mechanical hum from the farm some distance away that drives us nuts while our OHes don't hear it at all. And my OH's hearing is within normal parameters. It may not even be hearing acuity rather concentration, psychological, honing in on something, the pervasiveness of the noise that affects some but not others, women more than men, etc.

But if you are referring to witnesses the defence may call who live next door, we will have to see, but at least one is a best buddy with OP, and imo such testimony will always carry less weight for a judge, more especially if OP is about to be convicted on the technicality of "intent" to kill not Reeva but a burglar, and genuinely killed Reeva by mistake, a possibility I have always entertained.

 

[katydid23]

I doubt he would think about warning and scaring any intruder if he assumed there might be someone on the other side of that door with an AK47 waiting to blast through the door just as he, himself was about to blast through said door.

But if that was his fear, why would he run towards the door on his stumps to confront that danger? He could have gotten Reeva, his gun, and left the home. He could have hit the panic button, called security or the cops. He did NONE of those logical things one does when in mortal fear.

If there really had been armed intruders in his toilet, and he shot through the door, he would be dead too now most likely.

 

[Trooper]

and. .. 'Reeva , call the police!!'....


in all his other 'experiences ' with being burgled, and violence and all this stiff, previously, he never called the police.


in fact, the police were once called on HIM. which is where Oscar gets his crankup with W.O. Botha..

He was so angry and irritated with the police on the Vaal River drive, who pulled Darrin over for speeding and co incidentally spotted Oscars gun on the car seat, and emptied the chamber 'you touched my gun!!. you touched my gun"... that he reloaded it, while being driven off by Darrin and fired it thru the sunroof..

but on THIS night, he claims he instructed Reeva to call the police..

moonshine.

must have been quite the meeting of minds and eyes, when W.O. Botha rocked up as a responder to Oscars house.

 

[Viper]

Remember that the photo books are prosecution evidence

They chose unilaterally the photos they wanted to use (while disclosing all of the photos to the defense).

If the photos of the jeans outside are not important, they would not be in the prosecutions photo book. Ditto for all of the other photos.

 

[anagrammy]

Originally Posted by BabaJ View Post
"Hi, I have been following the engaging and passionate exchanges on the board. A lot of points to think about, it is also interesting to see different points of view.

Just with respect to the link above - I opened it and browsed through it and saw the following statement during Magena's testimony and wonder whether this was discussed "....Nel then asks him if he was interested in seeing the position of the &#8220;5&#8221; cartridge cases on the scene, and he says yes that&#8217;s correct. There were only 4 bullet holes so why 5 cartridges? I wonder if Nel just misspoke or if there is something more we are yet to find out?....."[/I

Also, I keep going back to another witness (I am not sure if it was the pathologist or the ballistic expert), who said that Reeva fell on the magazine rack after being hit in her hip. The she was shot in the head with her arms in a defensive position in front of her head. Why did she have her arms in front of her head while she lost balance and could not know that the next shot would be to her head? Would not be a natural reaction to try to break the fall and extend the arms down?

Any thoughts with respect to the above?"

1) She saw him take aim - he was shooting through a broken panel.
2) This goes along with a hunch I've had for a while that he did some unspeakable thing to Reeva, or she discovered something illegal he was doing, which if made public would be his ruin. Imagine for a moment that you are a world-class athlete who has a girlfriend coming over on Valentine's eve. Of course he is expecting sex, so he revs up for it while she is showering by viewing some *advertiser censored*. Clearly he needs stimulation because he's got the old herb injection evidence in the house. So he has the herbs on board and the *advertiser censored* ramp up and she says no because they are now fighting. She wants to know why he doesn't have a present or surprise for her, after all, she even sort of reminded him by texting "what surprise do you have for your love?" The surprise is nothing.

She feels humiliated and withholds sex as punishment. He is outraged and screams "Get out of my house" He diminishes her in public, tells her what to wear/not wear and now no Valentine's Day present? A huge row ensues and breaks her arm, or shoots her with the air gun and she says, "You are finished! I'm going to the police. I can't believe you shot/hit me! You are an animal, you belong in jail."

He is not about to let her end his brand, end his glory, so now she has to die because otherwise she will press charges and he will be a wifebeater instead of an Olympian. She realizes too late that she has made a terrible mistake, that he is a madman and she takes refuge while he hunts her down. He makes sure to shoot her so that the original injuries are obliterated.

This scenario is based on common sense. We all know that Valentine's Day is a very symbolic day for women. Homage must be paid and for her to bring a gift and him to have NOTHING planned...for a supermodel, really, nothing? It is a humiliation of the highest order and he better like *advertiser censored* because that's all he's getting without at least a box of (imported) candy for his sweetheart (who could have anybody!)

 

[MeeBee]

Maybe an adrenaline fueled rush of relief having just survived a near-death experience. I doubt OP announced his intention beforehand.

Near-death???

From what I remember, she said they all found it very funny. Sure, Darren May have said this to Oscar, but it seems a small embellishment to make him seem a little more innocent. I imagine a nervous laugh wouldn't sound like a man who found something genuinely funny.

 

[G.bng]

What makes you think that OP "knew" Reeva was awake??? I just checked his statement and he didn't mention that at all unless it was mentioned in testimony somewhere?.

It was in OP's statement the first day of trial that Oldwage read out, but who knows except OP if we are to understood she was awake when he rose or had fallen back to sleep:

4.1. During the early hours of the morning I bought two fans in from the balcony. I had shortly before spoken to Reeva who was in bed beside me.

This detail was not in his bail hearing statement which stated for the same event:

"During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.

IMO the addition about talking to Reeva may have been added to reinforce his claim that he thought she was in bed and already awake as one of the most overwhelming criticisms against him has been his failure to ensure Reeva's safety, i.e. check she was there and wake her to forewarn her so as she was able to take measures to protect herself if necessary.

 

[Cherwell]

I disagree. I think it sounds reasonable when fearful that an intruder is about to shoot, and he's on his stumps and his bedroom door is locked, preventing quick and certain escape for him and Reeva.

It doesn't matter if he can run on his stumps better than he can walk - it matters whether he was afraid he and Reeva could safely and quickly escape his bedroom (whether on stumps or legs or whatever).

You make it sound as though they had been locked in by a third party! He was perfectly capable of unlocking his own bedroom door, and indeed locking it again behind them, thus trapping the imagined intruder within the suite.

 

[Really?]

Originally Posted by BabaJ View Post
"Hi, I have been following the engaging and passionate exchanges on the board. A lot of points to think about, it is also interesting to see different points of view.

Just with respect to the link above - I opened it and browsed through it and saw the following statement during Magena's testimony and wonder whether this was discussed "....Nel then asks him if he was interested in seeing the position of the “5” cartridge cases on the scene, and he says yes that’s correct. There were only 4 bullet holes so why 5 cartridges? I wonder if Nel just misspoke or if there is something more we are yet to find out?....."[/I

Also, I keep going back to another witness (I am not sure if it was the pathologist or the ballistic expert), who said that Reeva fell on the magazine rack after being hit in her hip. The she was shot in the head with her arms in a defensive position in front of her head. Why did she have her arms in front of her head while she lost balance and could not know that the next shot would be to her head? Would not be a natural reaction to try to break the fall and extend the arms down?

Any thoughts with respect to the above?"

1) She saw him take aim - he was shooting through a broken panel.
2) This goes along with a hunch I've had for a while that he did some unspeakable thing to Reeva, or she discovered something illegal he was doing, which if made public would be his ruin. Imagine for a moment that you are a world-class athlete who has a girlfriend coming over on Valentine's eve. Of course he is expecting sex, so he revs up for it while she is showering by viewing some *advertiser censored*. Clearly he needs stimulation because he's got the old herb injection evidence in the house. So he has the herbs on board and the *advertiser censored* ramp up and she says no because they are now fighting. She wants to know why he doesn't have a present or surprise for her, after all, she even sort of reminded him by texting "what surprise do you have for your love?" The surprise is nothing.

She feels humiliated and withholds sex as punishment. He is outraged and screams "Get out of my house" He diminishes her in public, tells her what to wear/not wear and now no Valentine's Day present? A huge row ensues and breaks her arm, or shoots her with the air gun and she says, "You are finished! I'm going to the police. I can't believe you shot/hit me! You are an animal, you belong in jail."

He is not about to let her end his brand, end his glory, so now she has to die because otherwise she will press charges and he will be a wifebeater instead of an Olympian. She realizes too late that she has made a terrible mistake, that he is a madman and she takes refuge while he hunts her down. He makes sure to shoot her so that the original injuries are obliterated.

This scenario is based on common sense. We all know that Valentine's Day is a very symbolic day for women. Homage must be paid and for her to bring a gift and him to have NOTHING planned...for a supermodel, really, nothing? It is a humiliation of the highest order and he better like *advertiser censored* because that's all he's getting without at least a box of (imported) candy for his sweetheart (who could have anybody!)

opcorn:

 

[Insp.Dots]

agreed.. Oscar didn't take the witness stand in his bail hearing. He merely got by on his affidavit, which has since been altered in at least 2 respects..

( two fans now. originally one )

( not a squeak from Reeva from 10pm .. now , he says, he spoke to her a few minutes before the fan faffing )

or to put it another way, he lied on his bail affidavit. .. he didn't go back and correct it next day, for example.. his alterations have come for the trial.

big new adventure for Oscar.. since his 'motive ' for shooting is subjective.. (not objective) , his deep terror, only the subject can testify to it.

With respect the Police have made a few errors themselves in this case. OP added to his affidavit and will have to explain every word he has said. But he gave more info than he was required to.

Whether anyone likes it or now the law says he is innocent until proven guilty. This has not yet happened.

Yes, OP is the only one responsible for Reeva's death he has also said that from the moment he was arrested.

But the state would have had a much stronger case had the few investigators at the start not messed up and risked the whole integrity of the case.
Botha broke every rule in the book and then completely fabricated and presented a case full of holes.

I felt sorry for Nel having to apologise for discrepancies that came up with the Police evidence, either missing, wrongly numbered or not tested correctly.

Perhaps if all the investigators were as thorough and professional as Mangena there would be a much clearer picture and less people questioning the evidence and credibility of witnesses!

I hope when the Judge rules at the end of this, the case is fully proven and If OP is sentenced there will be no ground for any appeal. That is the very least Reeva deserves.

ALL MOO OF COURSE

sent via my kindle

 

[minor4th]

You make it sound as though they had been locked in by a third party! He was perfectly capable of unlocking his own bedroom door, and indeed locking it again behind them, thus trapping the imagined intruder within the suite.

I did not mean for it to sound like they were locked in by a third party - only that unlocking the door was another step to take to get away safely.

But if he really thought an intruder was about to come out of the toilet shooting at him and Reeva, it makes total sense to me that he would think the only sure way to protect himself and Reeva would be to get his gun and get in a position to shoot the burglar before the burglar could come out shooting.

Try to look at it from the perspective that he really did believe that an intruder was about to come out of the toilet room shooting. If he really believed that, then all of his actions make sense to me.