Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[jay-jay]

I feel much the same as you, there is way too much in his past interviews for anyone to believe he has suddenly become this helpless, frightened man and the lack of use of the panic button is quite unbelievable.

It also doesn't wash with me that this 'helpless, frightened man' was so concerned all the time about being broken into by an intruder, that he managed to sleep perfectly ok with the balcony doors open. I think I've said before, even I would have some difficulty sleeping like that as I would just naturally feel quite vulnerable. How come he didn't?

 

[kittychi]

If DT's strategy is to try to warp "Reasonable man" into "reasonable paraplegic" then there are several counters that Pros can use.

1. OP's own autobio [read here] hangs him. He has always said his mother raised him not to feel differently at all. He did not walk around in fear
2. With his gun aways at his side, he was not fearful at all, rather he was agressive all the time.
3. if he really had heard an unknown sound, he could have immediately hit the "panic button" to estate security and they would have been there in circa 60 seconds. This button appears never to have been hit that night.

I have been wondering this very thing and I think Nel should have made hay of it with Pieter Baba.

Have we heard where the panic button is located? My mother-in-law in "the home" had one in her bedroom and one in the bathroom.

 

[Interested Bystander]

There was no locked door between the bedroom and the bathroom area though .. as far as I can make out there is no door at all to that corridor that runs from the bedroom to the bathroom (with wardrobes along the sides of the passageway). The only door is the door from the bedroom out onto the landing (which I can only assume must be the one which was locked) .. so if it had actually been an intruder, they would've all been locked in the bedroom/ensuite bathroom area together. (not that I'm sticking up for him or anything :tongue: )

Oh, just thought .. if it all has to start again, this is all going to cost old OP one heck of a lot of money .. oh dear ..! :silenced:

In his Trial Statement he doesn't say any longer that the bedroom door was locked. This I find very odd. He made it a point in his Bail Affidavit. As you have probably seen in the posts, I am perplexed by this because it would not have been left out unintentionally. Leaving it in would have to have made a nonsense of something else in the trial but I cannot think what.

 

[jay-jay]

I am amazed at this reporting. It seems the US are already releasing more content of the WhatsApp messages before we have heard them from the trial.

http://www.nbcnews.com/#/storyline/...-sick-people-want-fill-her-head-doubts-n64036

Is that real??* If it is then oh my word, there were some problems in that relationship ..

.. why was that not presented as evidence earlier in the week when they were going through all the 'messages of concern'?


*clearly it is real because I've just now read the article as well .. I wouldn't mind betting that there is a substantial amount more messages that show there was something really not going very well in that relationship.

 

[Estelle]

One article I read I. "The southafrican " said he was fresh out of university .
No idea whether that is a fact
I don't know how to post links but here is a screen shot

I cannot read this screenshot so can anyone find the URL please?

Why would they have a man fresh out of university as an Assessor?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

There was no locked door between the bedroom and the bathroom area though .. as far as I can make out there is no door at all to that corridor that runs from the bedroom to the bathroom (with wardrobes along the sides of the passageway). The only door is the door from the bedroom out onto the landing (which I can only assume must be the one which was locked) .. so if it had actually been an intruder, they would've all been locked in the bedroom/ensuite bathroom area together. (not that I'm sticking up for him or anything :tongue: )

Oh, just thought .. if it all has to start again, this is all going to cost old OP one heck of a lot of money .. oh dear ..! :silenced:

There were the balcony doors ....oh and a panic button .
Even if he argues successfully about his disability there are still some hurdles he has to overcome for his version to be accepted .
There is the little matter of how she got into the toilet without him seeing her when the curtains were open and it would have only taken him a few seconds to grab a fan .The selective hearing and sight that he suffers from might be the thing that a judge won't buy .
Also I have a feeling there are still big things to come out from Nel .

 

[Estelle]

Is that real?? If it is then oh my word, there were some problems in that relationship ..

.. why was that not presented as evidence earlier in the week when they were going through all the 'messages of concern'?

I have a feeling that those documents have been submitted to the Judge in evidence but Nel has held back many things so he does not give the Defence any advance clues of what he is going to argue when he cross examines. Just like in the bail hearing we were told the State did not want to reveal too much.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Mistaken post.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I have a feeling that those documents have been submitted to the Judge in evidence but Nel has held back many things so he does not give the Defence any advance clues of what he is going to argue when he cross examines. Just like in the bail hearing we were told the State did not want to reveal too much.[
Nel must have been holding them back for a reason ?

 

[Really?]

There always seems to be "exceptional circumstances" as far as OP is concerned.

I read that it is a rule that the accused goes first and now he has more time to prepare, does not have to be filmed giving testimony and the Assessor could be married to the brother of another famous Olympian and they have probably mixed in the same social circles. It appears that Natalie could be SA's most famous female Paralympian and OP SA's most famous male Paralympian.

How many other advantages can be be given???

just jumping off this post.......my DH says that no way will they send OP to prison because he is white, rich and has stumps...........help !! he has been correct on so many disappointing verdicts lately he is making me crazy.
Could he be correct? South Africans, what do you think?

 

[BritsKate]

About the leak of the prosecution strategy (what?!) and also possible defense tactic of changing the definition of "reasonable man."


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...lothes-are-key-evidence-pistorius-case-n39071

Have you all seen this older Feb 28th, NBC article?

"South African journalist Karyn Maughan said his legal team is crafting a novel interpretation of the country's self-defense law, which is based on how a "reasonable" person would react to danger."

"You need to judge him as the reasonable paraplegic, and you need to take into account that this is a person who has persistently said that he's felt the most vulnerable on his stumps and was living, essentially, in a state of fear, in a state of terror."

If true, I find this legal strategy interesting, yet morally horrible. In a country with a great poverty divide and a huge difference in how black people are treated, rich privileged Pistorius, whose mogul family is like landed gentry, is trying to bend the rules, yet again.

I couldn't agree more and have already been pretty vocal about how distasteful I find it that OP is using his disability as a crutch in legal matters. Purely from a legal perspective though, it's probably their best and only chance of avoiding a conviction for (at least) culpable murder. Through dolus eventualis, I believe intent was proven too but we shall see.

My understanding of SA law is that the details of the crime do not match the criteria for self-defense. It's pretty stringent in that being in fear for your life isn't enough - an intruder pretty much needs to have a weapon on you - so they have to claim 'putative' self-defense. Meaning basically that he's not guilty of murder because a reasonable person in fear of an attack would have reacted the same. They have a problem here as Oscar shot four times which arguably is less than reasonable by many opinions - so Roux & Co. have to change the definition of reasonable too.

In an appellate case I was reading last week, a man was convicted of murder following a traffic collision. He shot the victim in the head. He then shot again when the victim's arm moved slightly. His claim was putative self-defense stating it was his belief the victim was reaching for a weapon. The court upheld his conviction though lowered his sentence to 20 years instead of 30. The conviction was upheld, in part, all because the defendant shot more than once.

JMO

 

[Viper]

Is that real??* If it is then oh my word, there were some problems in that relationship ..

.. why was that not presented as evidence earlier in the week when they were going through all the 'messages of concern'?


*clearly it is real because I've just now read the article as well .. I wouldn't mind betting that there is a substantial amount more messages that show there was something really not going very well in that relationship.

BIB. Nel only talked about a few things from the texts, and phone calls, and web history, and emails, but he put ALL OF IT in as evidence. Nel only questioned witnesses about a few of the photos, but he put a photo book with many many more photos in as evidence. Nel can and will use much more of the above evidence as the trial progresses; he is intentionally not showing the Court and us what he intends to do.

 

[aa9511]

Hi all,

Is Oscar going to testify? If so, does anyone know when?

Thanks and I would also love to know what you all's opinions of (for those of you who think he's guilty) what are your theories so far about what happened that night.

I followed the trial in the beginning, but have fallen behind - I think I left off during the ballistics guy.

TIA!

 

[Gbtaketwo]

BIB. Nel only talked about a few things from the texts, and phone calls, and web history, and emails, but he put ALL OF IT in as evidence. Nel only questioned witnesses about a few of the photos, but he put a photo book with many many more photos in as evidence. Nel can and will use much more of the above evidence as the trial progresses; he is intentionally not showing the Court and us what he intends to do.

I am obviously slow on the uptake here because I only just thought a little more
about the damaged to the toilet door.
OP is likely to state that a lot of the other damage to his house was done prior to the night of the shooting, so the splits to the right hand side of the door near the locks might also have been done earlier .
She could have been locked behind a door that had already been damaged .
I do wish the live in staff had given evidence for the prosecution because they must have something of value to add to this .
At least they could have confirmed what the condition of the house was when they last went in . A narrower time frame would have been better than supposition .
Or maybe I just just stop thinking so much

 

[Viper]

I am obviously slow on the uptake here because I only just thought a little more
about the damaged to the toilet door.
OP is likely to state that a lot of the other damage to his house was done prior to the night of the shooting, so the splits to the right hand side of the door near the locks might also have been done earlier .
She could have been locked behind a door that had already been damaged .
I do wish the live in staff had given evidence for the prosecution because they must have something of value to add to this .
At least they could have confirmed what the condition of the house was when they last went in . A narrower time frame would have been better than supposition .
Or maybe I just just stop thinking so much

Do you mean the bedroom doors? The ones that have so much damage from someone obviously beating them open because he was locked out of the bedroom. One of the doors has a hole in it from someone inside firing the air gun's pellet at someone on the outside. And OPs legs are beat really badly damaged, as though he was wearing them and trying to "knee" kick a door to break through its locks.

All of this will be presented by Nel. The judge will be able to make a decision of when these things occurred, the words "reasonable" and "believable" are important. People often focus on one small thing and show how OPs story can be plausible regarding that one small thing, but when all of the small things are considered together along with OPs story his story looks implausible.

 

[Estelle]

The web address is www.thesouthafrican.com/news
Title
What influence do the assessor have
Dated 21/3/14
As other people have said he is a bit of a mystery man . Maybe this is why ?

Here is the direct link:

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/news...rs-have-in-deciding-oscar-pistoriuss-fate.htm

Having read that article, they implied Themba was fresh out of university so I assumed that he may have been a Law Lecturer so I did another google search.

It appears from the link below that Themba did not have a full-time job in 2011 as he was listed at Skills-Universe.

Here is what is said about him:

"PROFILE INFORMATION
Tell us about what you do
I am currently working as a Casual Court Interpreter, and i have also finished my Assesor Course with Agresol Acred Training Solutions."

http://www.skills-universe.com/profile/ThembaMazibuko931

 

[Interested Bystander]

Hi all,

Is Oscar going to testify? If so, does anyone know when?

Thanks and I would also love to know what you all's opinions of (for those of you who think he's guilty) what are your theories so far about what happened that night.

I followed the trial in the beginning, but have fallen behind - I think I left off during the ballistics guy.

TIA!

I heard on Sky this morning that Nel andRoux have agreed that OP will be 2nd up on the stand. The Defence Pathologist seems to be 1st up. No reason given that I know of. I thought in SA law it was the who defendant had to appear first.

 

[G.bng]

I wonder why they keep referring to him as paraplegic.

I am perplexed about that too because from what I understand he is most definitely not a paraplegic. Could it be they think "paraplegic" makes him sound more vulnerable than "double amputee"?

I feel much the same as you, there is way too much in his past interviews for anyone to believe he has suddenly become this helpless, frightened man and the lack of use of the panic button is quite unbelievable.

I must have missed that, did OP have a panic button ?

 

[BritsKate]

Hi all,

Is Oscar going to testify? If so, does anyone know when?

Thanks and I would also love to know what you all's opinions of (for those of you who think he's guilty) what are your theories so far about what happened that night.

I followed the trial in the beginning, but have fallen behind - I think I left off during the ballistics guy.

TIA!

The consensus is that he really doesn't have a lot of choice. He has to testify to show state of mind for putative self-defense. Normally, the accused testifies first - but it was ruled, upon agreement of prosecution and defense, that the defense pathologist would testify before Oscar. So...best guess is the 7th or shortly thereafter. HTH

I must have missed that, did OP have a panic button ?

RSBM

Yes.

Witness 9: Pieter Baba

Position: Security guard, Pistorius’ estate.

Testimony summary: Received calls from neighbours who had heard bangs from Pistorius. Says he called Pistorius and Pistorius said “Everything is okay”, but he could hear Pistorius crying. Also pointed out that Pistorius had full alarm system and could have pressed panic button if felt himself under threat.

Questions arising: Pistorius’s phone records show that Pistorius phoned security first.

Defence says: Pistorius said “I am okay”, not “everything is okay”.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...es-case-against-oscar-pistorius/#.UzWRNfl_uMM

 

[Cherwell]

I am perplexed about that too because from what I understand he is most definitely not a paraplegic. Could it be by using they think "paraplegic" makes him sound more vulnerable than "double amputee"?

It's sloppy journalism from someone who doesn't know what 'paraplegic' means. She probably thinks it's a synonym for 'disabled'.