Trial Discussion Thread #16

[MeeBee]

That was just blood pooling from her two more serious wounds to her hip an her head as her body laid there for over an hour IIRC on the time.

I am more interested in the blood pool where she was shot and sat as OP tore the door apart, that was a tiny amount of blood for a gunshot victim with 5 massive wounds including 2 severed arteries. If she had survived for even a minute with those injuries the entire WC would have been covered with a massive pool of blood.

For example, if you do not mind the very graphic image of seeing a man get shot only in the head, and unlike Reeva he survived for a short time with his heart still pumping blood, then Google this:

bangkok protester shot head, bleeds out liveleak

In the US it is the first result at the top if the page. Warning: very graphic!

You're forgetting her head ended up over the toilet, her gunshot wound bleeding out directly into the bowl. I'd imagine the reason for the relatively small amount of blood (still looked like quite a bit though) was that she lost most of it in the toilet.

Personally, I've seen enough bestgore and watched enough trials to need to google a bit of gore *advertiser censored* to know how much blood the human body contains or how much a gunshot to the head bleeds.

 

[DebinGA]

News reports today say the DT pathologist will be their first witness.

 

[MeeBee]

IMBW and I am really going to have to listen again but I don't recall the PT expert attributing any of the blood patterns down the stairs to arterial spatter, indeed I precisely recall the expert saying those down the stairs were blood dripping from the pools of blood accumulated in Reeva's wounds and tissues.

http://ewn.co.za/2014/03/19/Oscar-Pistorius-trial-Blood-spatter-expert-testifies

“Spatter found in the downstairs lounge was caused by an arterial spurt. The stairs are above the lounge.”

He said there was a distinctive pattern in the shape of the letter ‘S’ which indicated an arterial spurt.

 

[nastasya]

All the shots must have gone through the door together because there would not have been time to change weapons.

The door could have been broken before all the shots, OP tries to get to Reeva

Then 4 shots to kill her

Then the remaining parts of panel removed causing the crack to deviate round the 4th hole.

The bat is the first to be used because Mr and Mrs Stipp both saw light in the toilet from the start. The bulb was broken, according to OP. The light was coming through the small hole.

Suppose OP is telling truth about the original shot being an accident.

Everything else still fits if first shot was an accident, and then he hit door with bat, but Reeva was screaming and threatening to ruin him, and wouldn't stop screaming. Last three shots could have come after bat and first shot.

There was no need to change weapon.

 

[Trotterly]

That's exactly what I have thought all along .. was that he was firing from the hip .. with his protheses on. :thumb:

I think the prostheses or not is all a bit of a red herring though. The defence will be able to work their way around it. What they cannot extinguish is the light in the toilet. It is that which damns OP.

 

[MeeBee]

Iirc the expert said the blood on the stairs was due to accumulated blood in Reeva's wounds dripping not to spurts.

There were spatters on the sofa and, I think, on the wall, that attributed to arterial spray.

 

[steveml]

I really no little some of this stuff so I'll leave it up tothe more qualified to figure out these things being discussed. I just wanted to say that its a small grouping of shots, even if he was fairly close, considering he was either terrified or raging. He appears to be a skilled marksman and was in control when he pulled the trigger.

That is what I'd expect to see from four consecutive quick shots (or two double-taps).
The space between the bullets is about right for someone who knows how to handle a gun, there is a bit of movement as would be expected, and this could also be slightly more pronounced if he was on his stumps. The angle of the bullets also suggests that the gun was probably fired from the same stance, as indicated by the expert witness.

i.e. OP didn't fire, open the door, return to the door and fire again. All shots were from the same position.

 

[DebinGA]

I think the prostheses or not is all a bit of a red herring though. The defence will be able to work their way around it. What they cannot extinguish is the light in the toilet. It is that which damns OP.

Would you expand on that please? Do you mean The Stipps' testimony or is there something more indicating the light was on in the bathroom?

 

[MeeBee]

Suppose OP is telling truth about the original shot being an accident.

Everything else still fits if first shot was an accident, and then he hit door with bat, but Reeva was screaming and threatening to ruin him, and wouldn't stop screaming. Last three shots could have come after bat and first shot.

There was no need to change weapon.

It's not impossible but I just don't think the pause between first and last shots was long enough to allow for all that to happen or that Reeva would even be in a proper mind to threaten to ruin him when she's just had her hip bone blasted away.

 

[Trotterly]

Suppose OP is telling truth about the original shot being an accident.

Everything else still fits if first shot was an accident, and then he hit door with bat, but Reeva was screaming and threatening to ruin him, and wouldn't stop screaming. Last three shots could have come after bat and first shot.

There was no need to change weapon.

The first bangs were on top of one another. How can you fire a gun and then hit with a bat straight afterwards?

 

[MeeBee]

bbm Each jolting step down(carrying a dead weight of how many kg?) would surely have created a pumping/compression effect similar to what the heart could have produced, n'est pas?

Je ne pense pas.

 

[Viper]

You're forgetting her head ended up over the toilet, her gunshot wound bleeding out directly into the bowl. I'd imagine the reason for the relatively small amount of blood (still looked like quite a bit though) was that she lost most of it in the toilet.

Personally, I've seen enough bestgore and watched enough trials to need to google a bit of gore *advertiser censored* to know how much blood the human body contains or how much a gunshot to the head bleeds.

BIB. That is highly likely. Her head wounds, perhaps both of them, bled in to the toilet bowl. But you may be overlooking / forgetting that she had a severed artery in her arm and a bullet to her hip that was equally destructive; the minimal bleeding from those extremely serious wounds cannot be explained away. She died with the head shot, in seconds not minutes, not 17 minutes and not 6 minutes, 2-3 seconds or 2-3 breaths, not longer. And death includes the heart stops beating.

 

[Carol70]

I think the prostheses or not is all a bit of a red herring though. The defence will be able to work their way around it. What they cannot extinguish is the light in the toilet. It is that which damns OP.

Which light?? I believe the light in the loo was not working (not sure where I saw that so could be wrong) and he clearly stated in his statement that he "thinks that's when he put light on blah" IOW, he actually wasn't sure when he put the light on, leaving room for maneuver in his statement.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Of course the shots went through the door.

After the first shot Reeva was on the floor. The only part of the door that was damaged was above the handle.

For killer to hit victim with subsequent shots through locked door he had to aim down.

The question is was the door broken enough at the top to see where he was aiming.

My point and reasoning (as continuing in the convo) was if it is suggested that he looked through gap and then walked back to 're position himself. To me it just doesn't follow. I'll stick to what the evidence and expert suggested.

 

[Trotterly]

Would you expand on that please? Do you mean The Stipps' testimony or is there something more indicating the light was on in the bathroom?

Both the Stipps saw the light and are good witnesses. This means that there was a breach in the toilet door when OP said he didn't break it down for another 15 minutes.

 

[steveml]

Of course the shots went through the door.

After the first shot Reeva was on the floor. The only part of the door that was damaged was above the handle.

For killer to hit victim with subsequent shots through locked door he had to aim down.

The question is was the door broken enough at the top to see where he was aiming.

According to state expert witness Mangena :-

Reeva was in a seated or semi-seated position on the magazine rack when the last shots hit.

She ended up with her head on top of the toilet seat, and the lower part of her body on the magazine rack.

 

[MeeBee]

BIB. That is highly likely. Her head wounds, perhaps both of them, bled in to the toilet bowl. But you may be overlooking / forgetting that she had a severed artery in her arm and a bullet to her hip that was equally destructive; the minimal bleeding from those extremely serious wounds cannot be explained away. She died with the head shot, in seconds not minutes, not 17 minutes and not 6 minutes, 2-3 seconds or 2-3 breaths, not longer. And death means the heart stops beating.

Death has different definitions.

 

[Trotterly]

Which light?? I believe the light in the loo was not working (not sure where I saw that so could be wrong) and he clearly stated in his statement that he "thinks that's when he put light on blah" IOW, he actually wasn't sure when he put the light on, leaving room for maneuver in his statement.

The light in the toilet cubicle. In the small window to the left of the bathroom window. If OP story is true this would have been completely dark as 4 bullet holes do not let in any light. The defence spent ages trying to get the Stipps to say there was no light but they failed.

 

[seattlechiquita]

According to state expert witness Mangena :-

Reeva was in a seated or semi-seated position on the magazine rack when the last shots hit.

She ended up with her head on top of the toilet seat, and the lower part of her body on the magazine rack.

Yup, and still, the killer was able to perfectly aim. Through a closed door. Hinky, much?

 

[MeeBee]

Yup, and still, the killer was able to perfectly aim. Through a closed door. Hinky, much?

Then how did all four bullets go through the panel?