Trial Discussion Thread #16

[lisasalinger]

Really not following that logic. If he shot her at 3:00 or 3:17 he still shot her. All that OP is dreaming about is washing away the argument he had for 17 minutes and Reeva's blood curdling screams, by way of saying that he shot her and then had a 17 minute screaming and arguing session with himself before he bothered to pick up the phone and call for help for her. Weird IMO, I can't believe that the DT would even consider presenting that story let alone do it on live television worldwide.

BBM

I do have to pause when I hear people say that some of us posters are falling over ourselves to make things "fit" just to support the OP guilty theory. And in the meantime, the Defense is falling all over themselves trying to turn Oscar in to a woman... so much so that as early as March 17 of this year (2 weeks ago) they were outside in the middle of the night screaming in high and low voices trying to sound like a woman.

Let's also not forget that under the Defense theory the lethal shots came at around 3am, or possibly even closer to 3:08am to be fair (giving some wiggle room here) yet OP did not call a single person until 3:19. Even giving the wiggle room that may not even exist, that is 11 minutes! Crucial time.

 

[jay-jay]

Personally it would give me a great deal of comfort if someone close to me knew very little at the time, rather than spent their final hours enduring a long terror ordeal.

Which is exactly what I said.

 

[MeeBee]

Maybe not to "scare" but I think you could shoot in a blind rage if you were wanting to throw your weight around... road rage idiots come to mind or those who drive a car at their ex, or bash a gf around. If the person stopped to think they would realise what they are doing but that's the problem, they don't and prisons are full of them over here. And pleeeease... I am absolutely not saying this would be any the less serious, less murder, etc. Anyone who can do something like that imo, no matter whether they think it's a burglar, a gf or even a dog, should be locked up very tightly for a very long long time.

I know scare was the wrong word, even when I posted it. I just figured people would understand what I was saying.

 

[G.bng]

I'd like to. :smile: but...

Being able to see through the panel would make it more difficult. I know you're going to think it strange but it's not. I'll explain...

To see Reeva you've got to be quite close to the panel. As soon as you get close to the panel you cannot hold the gun in front of you, there's no room. You can't be right up to the door as the gun wasn't fired from against the door. This means that your eyes are looking through the panel, and your arm cannot naturally follow your line of sight. You literally have to shoot one-handed with your arm bent more or less from your hip, and pulled backwards (your arm needs to be as far back from the door as the minimum distance specified by the expert witness).

The easiest example I can give you is shooting pool. To get the ball in the pocket you look down the cue and line everything up (even then you may still miss). Now, try to pot that same ball with the pool cue stuck out at the side of you rather than directly in front of you. Your eyes can look straight at the pocket (OP looking at Reeva's head), the cue is out to the side (OP's gun) and your hoping to hit the ball in the pocket (bullet to target). The shot becomes much more difficult. Remember, this is a bullet, not a pool ball.

The far more accurate way to fire a gun is to stand further back from the door, put both hands in front of you, look along the sight at where you want to fire, and shoot. This is exactly how you learn to shoot on a shooting range. You hardly ever see anyone shoot one-handed, and certainly nobody does it for accuracy.

This is why I'm convinced that OP was a few feet back from the door when he fired. He put his arms out front and fired four quick shots through the door. No specific target, just at the most likely area someone would be.

Powerful and compelling reasoning. And I would add that if you look then step back to shoot you have lost the target so that wouldn't work either.

 

[MeeBee]

FWIW, OP is only 5'2" on his stumps. He was already low.

I Know. But he was still aiming down.

 

[MeeBee]

I think you were saying that you believed that shooting at somebody four times behind the door was to scare them, not to kill them.

And when you said unfortunately Reeva collapsed I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic.

Would you have expected her to remain standing after being hit in the hip or legs?

So is your belief that the killer was warning the victim by shoot four bullets at hip level? And it was unfortunate that the victim had the audacitiy to fall down and allow herself to be killed by the other three warning shots?

So it was the victim's fault she was killed by the warning shots?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all, nastaya. Please stop twisting my words around. Please.

 

[MeeBee]

Ok, now I understand. That makes sense.

Especially if it was dark in the room.

Or if killer thought victim was sitting on the toilet, shots would have been at close to head level.

Ok, whew. I hope you understand I feel the utmost sadness and sorrow for Reeva. I would never suggest any of this was her fault.

 

[MeeBee]

Don't know if I understand correctly but are you saying the defence hasn't said whether bats or shot were first, because if you are I have to disagree because I heard Roux insisting the last volley were the bats with several witnesses.

(have been short and sharp here 'cos I'm only one to two pages behind now and then bed until tomorrow when I start trying to catch up again!)

That's not what I was saying but that's ok. Obviously, his assertion is the bat was last.

 

[lisasalinger]

Yes, to be accurate I was referring to each set of sounds, understanding that none of us are 100% sure yet on which happened when.

It's important to note that not only did Dr. Stipp report "gunshots" to Baba at 3:15:51, the other neighbor, Mr. Nhlengthwa, also specifically reported "gunshots" to Baba at 3:16:36. Nhlengthwa had tried to get thru at 3:16:15 but there was no answer (probably because he was talking to Stipp).

It's interesting to me that only the Stipps heard the 1st set of bangs, but everybody else heard the 2nd set of bangs. That tells me the 2nd set was louder.

I'm going to correct myself for accuracy sake... The guards working with Baba that night did report hearing gun shots just after 3am. We don't know what "just after" means but I took it to mean pretty close to 3am. So I cannot accurately say that only the Stipps heard the first set of sounds.

 

[G.bng]

Ok, scare, maim, injure, warning shot to legs, etc etc. the point I was making was that if he was shooting to kill, the person, the most logical thing to do would be to to aim higher where the head would be. I don't see the reason to aim low if you're trying to kill.

Not sure it needs to be about "shooting to kill". At least not according to the law, and in this case SA law. What is clear to anyone, even me and I have no experience with guns, that shooting blind 4 shots into such a reduced area, and on top tiled, and knowing there is a person in there, whether you have a conscious intention or not you are likely at worst to kill the person if not by direct hit, and it's unlikely you wouldn't have at very least one direct hit, from a ricochet, or at very best cause grievous bodily harm.

 

[MeeBee]

Not sure it needs to be about "shooting to kill". At least not according to the law, and in this case SA law. What is clear to anyone, even me and I have no experience with guns, that shooting blind 4 shots into such a reduced area, and on top tiled, and knowing there is a person in there, whether you have a conscious intention or not you are likely at worst to kill the person if not by direct hit, and it's unlikely you wouldn't have at very least one direct hit, from a ricochet, or at very best cause grievous bodily harm.

I understand this. I'm not saying it makes OP any less guilty. Just guessing at his intentions.

 

[steveml]

Well I have absolutely no idea how you can disagree that Reeva deserves a truthful verdict, for her sake and her memory .. whatever the truth was.

That's misinterpreting my post. I only disagreed on the fact you suggested only Reeva deserved justice - nothing else.

Moved on now.

 

[soozieqtips]

BBM

I do have to pause when I hear people say that some of us posters are falling over ourselves to make things "fit" just to support the OP guilty theory. And in the meantime, the Defense is falling all over themselves trying to turn Oscar in to a woman... so much so that as early as March 17 of this year (2 weeks ago) they were outside in the middle of the night screaming in high and low voices trying to sound like a woman.

Let's also not forget that under the Defense theory the lethal shots came at around 3am, or possibly even closer to 3:08am to be fair (giving some wiggle room here) yet OP did not call a single person until 3:19. Even giving the wiggle room that may not even exist, that is 11 minutes! Crucial time.

BBM - hahahaha. That made me laugh! It's true that some of us are repeatedly accused of trying to make things 'fit' - yet oddly, nothing is mentioned about the DT and what they're trying to make fit. And I can't wait for OP to explain what he was doing for the 11 minutes or 15 minutes or whatever it was after he killed Reeva... and I won't accept 'praying'.

 

[G.bng]

When has anybody targeted by voice? Show me incidents where killers hit parts of the body by targeting voice. Or is this something new that's never before happened?

This is real life not The Matrix.

Kung fu. ;-)

 

[steveml]

Here's a diagram showing the place and direction I think OP fired from.

* I didn't have any small-man clip-art available so used a gingerbread man.

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/21/police_add_more_confusion_to_oscar_pistorius_case/

 

[G.bng]

BIB. Did you mean gunshot "sounds"? No one saw OP fire any of the gunshots, so the gunshot sounds and the cricket bat sounds have to be identified in another way - other than Dr. Stipp who was closest and has military training and heard both sets of "sounds."

Agreed, but unfortunately Stipp thought them both to be gunshots and both DT and PT concur that only one can be the gunshots... quite a conundrum for the judge methinks.

 

[MeeBee]

here's a diagram showing the place and direction i think op fired from.

* i didn't have any small-man clip-art available so used a gingerbread man.

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/21/police_add_more_confusion_to_oscar_pistorius_case/

lol!!!

ETA: you should have used the gingerbread man from Shrek, if you catch my drift... (*bad*)

 

[screecher]

Might be a stretch BUT might the bin liners/bags have been used for the purpose of suffocation to ensure finality of death?? Just pondering . . .

Easy enough to quickly transfer them over a wound for the cessation of bleeding, when visitors suddenly arrived??

Yeah. What's more of a stretch, is murderer's fairy tale.

BBM

I do have to pause when I hear people say that some of us posters are falling over ourselves to make things "fit" just to support the OP guilty theory. And in the meantime, the Defense is falling all over themselves trying to turn Oscar in to a woman... so much so that as early as March 17 of this year (2 weeks ago) they were outside in the middle of the night screaming in high and low voices trying to sound like a woman.

Let's also not forget that under the Defense theory the lethal shots came at around 3am, or possibly even closer to 3:08am to be fair (giving some wiggle room here) yet OP did not call a single person until 3:19. Even giving the wiggle room that may not even exist, that is 11 minutes! Crucial time.

BBM

Desperation at it's finest. Such a pathetic excuse of a human being. The whole lot of them.

BBM - hahahaha. That made me laugh! It's true that some of us are repeatedly accused of trying to make things 'fit' - yet oddly, nothing is mentioned about the DT and what they're trying to make fit. And I can't wait for OP to explain what he was doing for the 11 minutes or 15 minutes or whatever it was after he killed Reeva... and I won't accept 'praying'.

He'll probably say he was frozen and cowering with remorse.

 

[screecher]

Oh. And praying, too.

 

[steveml]

lol!!!

ETA: you should have used the gingerbread man from Shrek, if you catch my drift... (*bad*)

Haha. I do. yep...it was bad lol :smile: