Trial Discussion Thread #17

[bessie]

Oscar Pistorius: South Africa gears up for its 'trial of the century'

(CNN) -- He was one of South Africa's favorite sons, an amputee track star who defied all the odds and sprinted into the hearts of millions during the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. She was a staggering beauty with the brains to match, a law graduate and model whose star was on the rise.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-preview/



Pistorius channel goes on air in South Africa

http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306483/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Ip4glGHn
Watch live: Oscar Pistorius murder trial
Follow events from Pretoria as paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius appears in court accused of murdering his girlfriend, the model Reeva Steenkamp.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Watch-live-Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial.html


Links:

Full Indictment-4 Counts-107 Witnesses

http://www.scribd.com/embeds/185695...=1&view_mode=scroll&show_recommendations=true

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/LIVE-UPDATES-Pistorius-broadcast-trial-ruling-20140225

http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/DStvs-Oscar-Pretorius-trial-TV-channel-wont-be-tabloid-20140228


Twitter:

https://twitter.com/oscartrial199

https://twitter.com/GeraldImrayAP

https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta

Live Streaming:

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-live-stream/

http://mybroadband.co.za/news/internet/97919-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-live-streaming.html

http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch-live-here-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-day-9/

http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistorius2.htm

Live News Feed

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4

Trial Video Archive:

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/

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[bessie]

Updated Trial Schedule​

Oscar Pistorius trial postponed due to illness of assessor

By Richard Allen Greene, CNN - updated 12:38 PM EDT, Fri March 28, 2014The trial of Oscar Pistorius, accused of killing his former girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, was postponed until April 7 because one of two assessors was hospitalized.

Admin/Mod Note​

Thank you all for participating! This forum has a special dynamic - good sleuthers, intelligent discussions, though provoking opinions expressed ... it makes it enjoyable to read & moderate. We sincerely thank you for that!

The last few days I've been disappointed to see a few exchanges begin to deteriorate :no: - escalating from a lack of tolerance for differing opinions. Of course opinions are going to differ when a bunch of intelligent, independent thinkers have a discussion. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. I understand the passion but the purpose should not be to change anyone else's mind. Respect your fellow posters and make a conscious effort to be tolerant. Please note that passive-aggressive, snarky, personalized posts will not be tolerated and, beginning immediately, will result in a loss of posting privileges.

Thanks all. :heartbeat:

 

[Harmony 2]

link

link

Continue discussion here...​

 

[minor4th]

So .... I read OP's book "Blade Runner" over the last two days. Has anyone else read it?

 

[BritsKate]

Hello all! Quick question: Many seem to believe that the DT is really going to put forth that Reeva was killed at 3:00 (approximately) and OP did his routine of screaming like a girl and arguing in both a man's and women's voice as 17 minutes (approximately) passed by before calling Stander and then Netcare; does anyone see that as a real possibility? I only ask because I just can't imagine that, although it sure looks like it from the tests at night that the DT did. Desperation is a word that comes to my mind...

Nope. I can't see many defense attorneys allowing for an almost 20 minute gap that would seriously harm their client's version of events. I believe they're simply going to do their best to discredit the witnesses recollection. As we saw with cross, any minor inconsistency is being used to cast doubt upon the entirety of testimony. That's how they'll tighten the timeline, imo.

I believe the sound 'test' was conducted for that reason alone - simply to refute that the witnesses could have heard what they did. They'll use their own witnesses to further this too.

It may seem desperate and/or ludicrous but in reality Roux & Co. have a serious uphill battle ahead of them. Legally, their hands are quite literally tied. Someone earlier quoted an attorney as stating they'd have tried for an insanity plea but in SA the M'Naghten rule applies. For those unfamiliar, the onus to prove mental illness lies with the defence and it is a very heavy burden to prove. There is a legal presumption that the defendant is sane until it is proven otherwise on a balance of probabilities. It's seldom used as a defense because the bar is so high.

So, insanity defense is really tough to prove; crime of passion doesn't exist; there is no law to mitigate for mistaken identity; self-defense has strict perimeters this crime doesn't meet - so just about all that's left is not guilty due to putative self-defense. So they'll have to discount, diminish, and disregard. Mrs. Stipp was portrayed as a liar; Ms. Burger implied to have an agenda; Botha taints all law enforcement with the corrupt/inept brush, etc. That's about all they can do - and put Oscar on the stand to testify why it's reasonable he should have been so in fear for his life he fired four times without a single warning shot.

I don't much like Roux...but I certainly wouldn't want the job he has ahead of himself.

JMO

 

[kittychi]

Those snacks are more like it, Harmony2!

 

[nastasya]

Nope. I can't see many defense attorneys allowing for an almost 20 minute gap that would seriously harm their client's version of events. I believe they're simply going to do their best to discredit the witnesses recollection. As we saw with cross, any minor inconsistency is being used to cast doubt upon the entirety of testimony. That's how they'll tighten the timeline, imo.

I believe the sound 'test' was conducted for that reason alone - simply to refute that the witnesses could have heard what they did. They'll use their own witnesses to further this too.

It may seem desperate and/or ludicrous but in reality Roux & Co. have a serious uphill battle ahead of them. Legally, their hands are quite literally tied. Someone earlier quoted an attorney as stating they'd have tried for an insanity plea but in SA the M'Naghten rule applies. For those unfamiliar, the onus to prove mental illness lies with the defence and it is a very heavy burden to prove. There is a legal presumption that the defendant is sane until it is proven otherwise on a balance of probabilities. It's seldom used as a defense because the bar is so high.

So, insanity defense is really tough to prove; crime of passion doesn't exist; there is no law to mitigate for mistaken identity; self-defense has strict perimeters this crime doesn't meet - so just about all that's left is not guilty due to putative self-defense. So they'll have to discount, diminish, and disregard. Mrs. Stipp was portrayed as a liar; Ms. Burger implied to have an agenda; Botha taints all law enforcement with the corrupt/inept brush, etc. That's about all they can do - and put Oscar on the stand to testify why it's reasonable he should have been so in fear for his life he fired four times without a single warning shot.

I don't much like Roux...but I certainly wouldn't want the job he has ahead of himself.

JMO

Since the killer went to get a gun, left his bedroom, went down two passages, and then shot four times, I was wondering if there is such a thing as aggressive, preemptive self-defense?

Is there even such a thing as preemptive self-defense, meaning killing somebody first because you believe he or she may attack you at some point?

Under the DT's theory, if an intruder was in the bathroom just to steal something, and the intruder saw OP coming with the gun, the intruder would have had the right to shoot OP first.

 

[kittychi]

OP says he yelled "help, help, help" out the balcony, so why then say "everything is fine" when he got a call from Security?

IMO he had to find a place in his affi to account for the "help, help, help" because he really did say it. I tend to believe the neighbor witness who testified that the "help, help, help" she heard was "non-emotional" and sounded to be in a mocking voice.

 

[kittychi]

So .... I read OP's book "Blade Runner" over the last two days. Has anyone else read it?

No, what did you think? Do you think Oscar had a ghost writer or do you think it was pretty much his own voice?

 

[minor4th]

No, what did you think? Do you think Oscar had a ghost writer or do you think it was pretty much his own voice?

I thought it was kind of boring, actually, when it seems like there was an opportunity there to have a really captivating human interest kind of story.

Sounded pretty much like his own voice to me - but I thought I read that he did have a ghostwriter.

 

[Viper]

Nope. I can't see many defense attorneys allowing for an almost 20 minute gap that would seriously harm their client's version of events. I believe they're simply going to do their best to discredit the witnesses recollection. As we saw with cross, any minor inconsistency is being used to cast doubt upon the entirety of testimony. That's how they'll tighten the timeline, imo.

I believe the sound 'test' was conducted for that reason alone - simply to refute that the witnesses could have heard what they did. They'll use their own witnesses to further this too.

It may seem desperate and/or ludicrous but in reality Roux & Co. have a serious uphill battle ahead of them. Legally, their hands are quite literally tied. Someone earlier quoted an attorney as stating they'd have tried for an insanity plea but in SA the M'Naghten rule applies. For those unfamiliar, the onus to prove mental illness lies with the defence and it is a very heavy burden to prove. There is a legal presumption that the defendant is sane until it is proven otherwise on a balance of probabilities. It's seldom used as a defense because the bar is so high.

So, insanity defense is really tough to prove; crime of passion doesn't exist; there is no law to mitigate for mistaken identity; self-defense has strict perimeters this crime doesn't meet - so just about all that's left is not guilty due to putative self-defense. So they'll have to discount, diminish, and disregard. Mrs. Stipp was portrayed as a liar; Ms. Burger implied to have an agenda; Botha taints all law enforcement with the corrupt/inept brush, etc. That's about all they can do - and put Oscar on the stand to testify why it's reasonable he should have been so in fear for his life he fired four times without a single warning shot.

I don't much like Roux...but I certainly wouldn't want the job he has ahead of himself.

JMO

Thank you, truly. That is what I thought from basic logic; but my reading here and in other sites - people really do believe in magic!

 

[vansleuths]

RS was killed at 3:17am according to the PT and this caused the second set of bangs.

Could you speculate as to what was the source of the first set of bangs then?

 

[Val1]

RS was killed at 3:17am according to the PT and this caused the second set of bangs.

Could you speculate as to what was the source of the first set of bangs then?

Without knowing how many bullets OP's gun was capable of holding, it's hard to say if any were missing. I have no idea why the magazine for it was sitting in the bedroom, isn't that what holds the bullets in the gun? I believe there were only four casings found and one bullet was still in the gun, I haven't heard anything else.

 

[K.T]

This is to Lisa post* on Thread 16 #575 -

"BBM... I have considered this too. I just don't know how exactly to break everything down logistically. It's hard to do until I hear the Defense's side and Nel's cross-examination.

The State did definitively say it is their position that all shots occurred during the 2nd volley of sounds. They must have a reason why they believe that."

I love Juror13, thank you for the great blog! I've been looking through it confirm points and it's helped understand a lot of evidence points. I also never saw all the images - that pair of jeans and white belt in the garden underneath the bathroom/toilet windows definitely looks out of place and suggesting some type of argument/incident occurred.

if possible could you please help me find where the prosecution stated all the gunshots were in the second set of sounds at 3.15ish? Want to relook over that testimony. Thanks

*Sorry, not sure how to quote from a closed link.

 

[steveml]

reply from post #932 Thread 16.


I can't find any suggestion that the keys were picked up from the floor by OP on his side of the bathroom door.

The green key fob with keys were found in the bathroom door (OP's side) by the PT.

I've assumed that the keys with the green fob were initially in the lock on Reeva's side of the door. The likelihood is that after breaking the top half of the door OP either :-

a) had to reach round to retrieve the keys which were in the lock just below the handle on Reeva's side. He could then insert a key in the lock on his side to open the door.

b) the breaking of the door with the cricket bat caused the keys to dislodge from the door on Reeva's side, so OP had to pick them from the floor.
He could then insert a key in the lock on his side to open the door.

There was also a suggestion that OP locked Reeva in the bathroom.

It's possible, but that would necessitate OP locking Reeva in the bathroom first then either :-

c) breaking down the door whilst the keys still remain in the lock on his side. The keys would still be in the lock when found by DT.

d) breaking the door with the keys falling to the floor on his side. OP would then have to had placed the keys back in the lock on his side.

I can't see what purpose the actions c) or d) would serve to help OP in a supposed meticulous cover-up.
Surely if you wanted it to appear that you hadn't locked Reeva in the bathroom you would ensure the keys were found on Reeva' side of the door?

Nevertheless, I think it will be quite interesting if there is mention of a spare or second set of bathroom keys.
This would at least go some way to explain if it would have been quicker for OP to retrieve these, than to spend time bashing the door with a cricket bat.

 

[steveml]

I thought this tweet was fairly accurate in depicting Roux...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ius-murder-trial-March-14-as-it-happened.html

 

[lisasalinger]

This is to Lisa post* on Thread 16 #575 -

"BBM... I have considered this too. I just don't know how exactly to break everything down logistically. It's hard to do until I hear the Defense's side and Nel's cross-examination.

The State did definitively say it is their position that all shots occurred during the 2nd volley of sounds. They must have a reason why they believe that."

I love Juror13, thank you for the great blog! I've been looking through it confirm points and it's helped understand a lot of evidence points. I also never saw all the images - that pair of jeans and white belt in the garden underneath the bathroom/toilet windows definitely looks out of place and suggesting some type of argument/incident occurred.

if possible could you please help me find where the prosecution stated all the gunshots were in the second set of sounds at 3.15ish? Want to relook over that testimony. Thanks

*Sorry, not sure how to quote from a closed link.

Thanks, KT It was on Day 4, while Roux was cross-examining Dr. Stipp. Nel objected at one point because Roux was starting to state as fact that only the first set of sounds were gunshots and Nel wanted to be very clear that the Defense had their theory (1st set) and the State had their theory (2nd set).

I too find it interesting to go back and read the witness testimonies again. In reading Dr. Stipp's account, he seems to remember the time in between the two sets of bangs as being fairly quick. Yet his wife clearly remembers the two times on the clock - 3:02 and 3:17 (her clock usually runs 3-4 minutes fast).

Luckily we have other witnesses and phone records to help us rectify those times.

Baba's security guards on duty that night heard shots/bangs just after 3am, as did Mrs. van der Mewre, so that 3:00am time is probably fairly accurate for the first set.

And we know that Dr. Stipp got thru to Baba to report the shots/bangs at 3:15:51, and that 2nd set had occurred just prior to him getting through.

Mr. Nglengthwa, the other neighbor, was calling Baba at 3:16+ to report shots.

Burger and Johnson heard the shots close to 3:17.

So safe to say that the second set of shots/bangs occurred close to the 3:15am timeframe.

It seems that Mrs. Stipp's accounting of time is more accurate that Dr. Stipp's initial accounting of it being very rapid, if we look at the totality of what everyone was saying plus phone call times.

 

[shane13]

Since the killer went to get a gun, left his bedroom, went down two passages, and then shot four times, I was wondering if there is such a thing as aggressive, preemptive self-defense?

Is there even such a thing as preemptive self-defense, meaning killing somebody first because you believe he or she may attack you at some point?

Under the DT's theory, if an intruder was in the bathroom just to steal something, and the intruder saw OP coming with the gun, the intruder would have had the right to shoot OP first.

I said a year ago here, pity that Reeva was not "always armed" like he was.
You can find video and/or pics of Reeva shooting at a range too. But I doubt that it was at 3:00AM as OP liked to do...

 

[fox1lady]

I've been wondering about the phones found in the bathroom, my theory is that Reeva ran suspected that OP was seeing someone else, maybe he had been texting or calling someone. They argued, she grabbed his phone as well as her own and ran to the bathroom to inspect the log. He chased after her and she locked herself in to get time to go through the phone.

 

[lisasalinger]

Carried over from Shane13 in last thread:

"Thanks but...

1. Still not what I am talking about: The Nel stipulation at the start of last Tuesday's Court Session that has been excised from videos.

2. Where does anyone say this is from "the 5th phone taken from the crime scene". All news reports said that people were flying to Apple etc were about "the 4th phone." So I presume he's giving testimony about what was on the 4th phone unless I hear the words from me just above."


.
Shane, in the last thread, you bolded my post that stated "the phone was turned over on February 26, per Nel" and asked me for a link.

I provided you with a link that showed exactly where Nel stated that the phone was turned over on February 26 and you still reply back that it's not what you're talking about.

I gave you exactly what you were asking for in that specific post.

I know you are on a hunt for Tuesday's court opening that you believe has been excised and I and several others have stated previously that we do not have any information about that. You asked me about the February 26 detail, and I provided that.

I have also provided you with a link and information that showed that the 5th phone, the phone that was stolen from the scene, the phone that ends in 0020, the phone that you keep asking about IS the phone that was sent to Apple in the US.

I'm just not sure what else you want at this point.

I understand your concern about there being a lack of investigation and/or information about what occurred. I share in that concern.