Trial Discussion Thread #17

[Deleted member 102539]

OP says he yelled "help, help, help" out the balcony, so why then say "everything is fine" when he got a call from Security?

IMO he had to find a place in his affi to account for the "help, help, help" because he really did say it. I tend to believe the neighbor witness who testified that the "help, help, help" she heard was "non-emotional" and sounded to be in a mocking voice.

Could it be, OP created an invasion for Reeva, who should not recognize, that he -OP- would be the shooter now???
He wanted to shoot at Reeva and kill her in a rage but not bear the blame, not even in the eyes of a ("loved") person sentenced (by him) to death.
Perhaps OP had the idea with "burglars" in these few seconds before shooting.


I have difficulty expressing my thoughts in English, sorry.

 

[shane13]

For the record. And for everyone here.

Given that the iniital minutes of the Court's session on last Tuesday were excised from all videos, and more importantly given that the DT had that 5th phone in their possession for 12 days before giving it to the PT--who then did NOT launch an investigation of this crime--I would urge all not to accept anything from that phone as ipso facto accurate. This includes calls to and fro, times calls were made etc. Could have been doctored.

Standard police handling in criminal matters includes certfied proof of handling and times and places where an item is it all times. ["Chain of Custody" throughout is long gone.]

Here we have the very opposite. Unknown whereabouts of this phone since the moment it was illegally removed from the crime scene.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Thread #16 Bazinga, post 940



BIB
This got me thinking!
What do I want OP to answer?
A question to everyone on the board - What one question do you want Nel to ask OP when OP is on the stand?
I'm going to have a think about my one question, don't want to waste it!
What question would clarify or confirm something for you?
What question would give you a sense of him lying or being truthful in his answer?

My question would be:
Mr. P, you have worn a white t-shirt at act time. What happened to this shirt?

I think, there is a reason to have making disappear the shirt. I don't know, what reason. Perhaps gunshot residue, which reveal the level at which the weapon was fired (stumps/not stumps)?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

For the record. And for everyone here.

Given that the iniital minutes of the Court's session on last Tuesday were excised from all videos, and more importantly given that the DT had that 5th phone in their possession for 12 days before giving it to the PT--who then did NOT launch an investigation of this crime--I would urge all not to accept anything from that phone as ipso facto accurate. This includes calls to and fro, times calls were made etc. Could have been doctored.

Standard police handling in criminal matters includes certfied proof of handling and times and places where an item is it all times.

Here we have the very opposite. Unknown whereabouts of this phone since the moment it was illegally removed from the crime scene.

I am not sure of details regarding the 5th phone and am confused as to whether there is a 5th but lets for arguments sake say there is . Could it be it was excised from the court records and TV because it is the subject of a criminal investigation ?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I've been wondering about the phones found in the bathroom, my theory is that Reeva ran suspected that OP was seeing someone else, maybe he had been texting or calling someone. They argued, she grabbed his phone as well as her own and ran to the bathroom to inspect the log. He chased after her and she locked herself in to get time to go through the phone.

Could be this or could be that the iPads were synced so one of them saw something on the others iPad .

I think there were some rumours flying round that OP might have been seeing someone else but I can't remember where I read that now or of indeed there is any truth to it .
One of them ( op I believe ) deleted there history at 6.30 that evening which could be innocent but does look slightly suspicious to me .

 

[K.T]

For the record. And for everyone here.

Given that the iniital minutes of the Court's session on last Tuesday were excised from all videos, and more importantly given that the DT had that 5th phone in their possession for 12 days before giving it to the PT--who then did NOT launch an investigation of this crime--I would urge all not to accept anything from that phone as ipso facto accurate. This includes calls to and fro, times calls were made etc. Could have been doctored.

Standard police handling in criminal matters includes certfied proof of handling and times and places where an item is it all times.

Here we have the very opposite. Unknown whereabouts of this phone since the moment it was illegally removed from the crime scene.

Pistorius leaving the crime seen with evidence, not handing his phone in and conveniently ‘forgetting’ his whatsapp/mb password does make him look deceitful and I would think there should be charges laid. I agree, you have to ask whatever were they doing with the mb over that period.

It is ridiculous that he, or someone around Pistorius, and the defense team withheld such a vital piece of evidence until February 26th.

I hope Nel can use that to pin Pistorius down on the stand about who helped him take the phone from the crime scene and why did he hinder the investigation by not giving them the password on a device he used continuously.

It may also mean Pistorius was not truthful on the 19 February bail affidavit:

I have no knowledge of any evidentiary material which may exist with regard to the allegations levelled against me. In any event, I believe that whatever such evidence may be, it is in the possession of the police; it is safely secured and I do not have access thereto. I undertake not to interfere with any further investigations.

Having a main mobile phone in the possession of the defense team (or his own hands) through the bail hearing until Feb 26 is pretty much the definition withholding evidentiary material. Thanks also for making the police have to fly to California to phonejack the material.

 

[K.T]

Thanks, KT It was on Day 4, while Roux was cross-examining Dr. Stipp. Nel objected at one point because Roux was starting to state as fact that only the first set of sounds were gunshots and Nel wanted to be very clear that the Defense had their theory (1st set) and the State had their theory (2nd set).

snip

It seems that Mrs. Stipp's accounting of time is more accurate that Dr. Stipp's initial accounting of it being very rapid, if we look at the totality of what everyone was saying plus phone call times.

Thanks Lisa, look forward to checking over Dr Stipp's court day

 

[steveml]

Until such time that anyone can show me how that data has been doctored by the cellphone provider, or how signal information from the mobile phone has been diverted from the many thousands of cellphone masts, I'm going to stick with the cellphone providers information irrespective of whether the information held within the mobile benefits one side or the other.

Every mobile phone has more than one unique identifying number. The number is contained within the phones transmission data and I haven't seen a situation yet where anybody worldwide has been able to override this.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

reply from post #932 Thread 16.


I can't find any suggestion that the keys were picked up from the floor by OP on his side of the bathroom door.

The green key fob with keys were found in the bathroom door (OP's side) by the PT.

I've assumed that the keys with the green fob were initially in the lock on Reeva's side of the door. The likelihood is that after breaking the top half of the door OP either :-

a) had to reach round to retrieve the keys which were in the lock just below the handle on Reeva's side. He could then insert a key in the lock on his side to open the door.

b) the breaking of the door with the cricket bat caused the keys to dislodge from the door on Reeva's side, so OP had to pick them from the floor.
He could then insert a key in the lock on his side to open the door.

There was also a suggestion that OP locked Reeva in the bathroom.

It's possible, but that would necessitate OP locking Reeva in the bathroom first then either :-

c) breaking down the door whilst the keys still remain in the lock on his side. The keys would still be in the lock when found by DT.

d) breaking the door with the keys falling to the floor on his side. OP would then have to had placed the keys back in the lock on his side.

I can't see what purpose the actions c) or d) would serve to help OP in a supposed meticulous cover-up.
Surely if you wanted it to appear that you hadn't locked Reeva in the bathroom you would ensure the keys were found on Reeva' side of the door?

Nevertheless, I think it will be quite interesting if there is mention of a spare or second set of bathroom keys.
This would at least go some way to explain if it would have been quicker for OP to retrieve these, than to spend time bashing the door with a cricket bat.

If say the bunch of keys on the bedside table or maybe down in the kitchen did indeed have a spare key for the bathroom or it is a generic key for a few doors within the house ( that's what our house is like inside ) then would Nel have had to have entered evidence of that into court all ready ? Or can he just state it as a fact during summing up or cross examination ?

 

[BritsKate]

RS was killed at 3:17am according to the PT and this caused the second set of bangs.

Could you speculate as to what was the source of the first set of bangs then?

I don't believe it was a coincidence that Nel asked Vermeulen if kicking the door could have been done to scare someone.

Personally, I think he was beating on the door trying to intimidate her to come out. But Reeva had been in an abusive relationship before - there is NO way she would have opened the door if he was that angry. I believe she said she was going to call someone and that's when he snapped and retrieved his gun.

If she came out of the toilet, Oscar may have been able to regain control of the situation but with Reeva behind a locked door, with access to communication, I think his only thought was stopping her.

MOO

 

[Really?]

Thread #16 Bazinga, post 940



BIB
This got me thinking!
What do I want OP to answer?
A question to everyone on the board - What one question do you want Nel to ask OP when OP is on the stand?
I'm going to have a think about my one question, don't want to waste it!
What question would clarify or confirm something for you?
What question would give you a sense of him lying or being truthful in his answer?

My question would be:
Mr. P, you have worn a white t-shirt at act time. What happened to this shirt?

I think, there is a reason to have making disappear the shirt. I don't know, what reason. Perhaps gunshot residue, which reveal the level at which the weapon was fired (stumps/not stumps)?

Is that shirt really missing ?...If it is then I believe it was ripped...torn...

 

[steveml]

If say the bunch of keys on the bedside table or maybe down in the kitchen did indeed have a spare key for the bathroom or it is a generic key for a few doors within the house ( that's what our house is like inside ) then would Nel have had to have entered evidence of that into court all ready ? Or can he just state it as a fact during summing up or cross examination ?

Good point. If it's a generic key all Nel will have to do is use the fact in cross-x and he can go really heavy on OP regarding this.
I'm not sure it would look good at all if there is a spare key.

If OP is going to claim it took him a while to break the door down, you would expect this to be because a key wasn't available, otherwise it's hard to believe OP thought this was the quickest way of rescuing Reeva.

:thumb:

 

[MeeBee]

For the record. And for everyone here.

Given that the iniital minutes of the Court's session on last Tuesday were excised from all videos, and more importantly given that the DT had that 5th phone in their possession for 12 days before giving it to the PT--who then did NOT launch an investigation of this crime--I would urge all not to accept anything from that phone as ipso facto accurate. This includes calls to and fro, times calls were made etc. Could have been doctored.

Standard police handling in criminal matters includes certfied proof of handling and times and places where an item is it all times. ["Chain of Custody" throughout is long gone.]

Here we have the very opposite. Unknown whereabouts of this phone since the moment it was illegally removed from the crime scene.

There is certain information that cannot really be erased/manipulated on a phone. It's like a computer. You can't add phone records and call times and you can erase them but there are still call logs from the cell phone companies and such, not to mention phone records on the other end. And if they sincerely wanted to manipulate the phone records, you'd think they'd do a better job of removing the sketchy calls like the one to Stander, for instance.

 

[nastasya]

reply from post #932 Thread 16.


I can't find any suggestion that the keys were picked up from the floor by OP on his side of the bathroom door.

The green key fob with keys were found in the bathroom door (OP's side) by the PT.

I've assumed that the keys with the green fob were initially in the lock on Reeva's side of the door. The likelihood is that after breaking the top half of the door OP either :-

a) had to reach round to retrieve the keys which were in the lock just below the handle on Reeva's side. He could then insert a key in the lock on his side to open the door.

b) the breaking of the door with the cricket bat caused the keys to dislodge from the door on Reeva's side, so OP had to pick them from the floor.
He could then insert a key in the lock on his side to open the door.

There was also a suggestion that OP locked Reeva in the bathroom.

It's possible, but that would necessitate OP locking Reeva in the bathroom first then either :-

c) breaking down the door whilst the keys still remain in the lock on his side. The keys would still be in the lock when found by DT.

d) breaking the door with the keys falling to the floor on his side. OP would then have to had placed the keys back in the lock on his side.

I can't see what purpose the actions c) or d) would serve to help OP in a supposed meticulous cover-up.
Surely if you wanted it to appear that you hadn't locked Reeva in the bathroom you would ensure the keys were found on Reeva' side of the door?

Nevertheless, I think it will be quite interesting if there is mention of a spare or second set of bathroom keys.
This would at least go some way to explain if it would have been quicker for OP to retrieve these, than to spend time bashing the door with a cricket bat.

Toilet door being locked is THE critical piece that holds the killer's entire alibi together.

For killer to explain multiple bangs, and screams, the door MUST be locked.

Would Reeva really go to the trouble of locking the toilet door at 3:00 am for 30 seconds to pee in the dark?

 

[shane13]

I am not sure of details regarding the 5th phone and am confused as to whether there is a 5th but lets for arguments sake say there is . Could it be it was excised from the court records and TV because it is the subject of a criminal investigation ?

BBM

Again just the opposite has occurred. No investigation. The crime has been ignored by Pros and judges. I’ve made this clear several times.

In fact this was better covered at the BH—that a 5th phone was taken illegally from the crime scene and that as Roux put it then “the Defense has it.” Now we learned for12 days before giving it to the PT.

In criminal matters,if there is no chain of custrody, the item can be considered worthless.

 

[kittychi]

I've been wondering about the phones found in the bathroom, my theory is that Reeva ran suspected that OP was seeing someone else, maybe he had been texting or calling someone. They argued, she grabbed his phone as well as her own and ran to the bathroom to inspect the log. He chased after her and she locked herself in to get time to go through the phone.

IMO I don't trust that the location of those phones remained the same after the shooting. They could very well have moved when Oscar struggled and dragged Reeva out of the toilet room OR could have been placed a certain way by OP when he went back upstairs unsupervised. Who knows what all he did up there...he was apparently obviously distraught when he went back upstairs since Dr. Stipp thought he went back up there to shoot himself.

 

[MeeBee]

I don't believe it was a coincidence that Nel asked Vermeulen if kicking the door could have been done to scare someone.

Personally, I think he was beating on the door trying to intimidate her to come out. But Reeva had been in an abusive relationship before - there is NO way she would have opened the door if he was that angry. I believe she said she was going to call someone and that's when he snapped and retrieved his gun.

If she came out of the toilet, Oscar may have been able to regain control of the situation but with Reeva behind a locked door, with access to communication, I think his only thought was stopping her.

MOO

It's not a coincidence. He's planting an idea in people's heads without actually knowing if it's true. And it worked.

Reeva's mother said it was untrue that she had ever been in an abusive relationship and is unsure of how that rumor started.

 

[james83]

So he get's up at 3am in the morning because he is hot, brings in fans and shuts the doors.
So he's hot, yet he shuts the doors?.

 

[MeeBee]

So he get's up at 3am in the morning because he is hot, brings in fans and shuts the doors.
So he's hot, yet he shuts the doors?.

Or he was cold/cool enough that he felt he didn't need the fans anymore.

 

[kittychi]

Could be this or could be that the iPads were synced so one of them saw something on the others iPad .

I think there were some rumours flying round that OP might have been seeing someone else but I can't remember where I read that now or of indeed there is any truth to it .
One of them ( op I believe ) deleted there history at 6.30 that evening which could be innocent but does look slightly suspicious to me .

I am confused about the ipads being synced. I thought the two synced ipads belonged to Oscar, one was a 2 and one was a 3 and they were being synced to load 3 with content from 2. That Reeva's ipad was totally separate and was hers alone.

Can anyone clarify this?

Thanks in advance; just trying to keep up!