Trial Discussion Thread #17

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
And I'd be reluctant to call every douchey or moody thing he does abusive without the proper context. I'm not saying it's acceptable to criticize your gf's accent or gum chewing, but sometimes people can get irritable and every little thing your SO does annoys you. I tell my husband all the time to stop smacking his food, especially when I'm irritated, stop touching me, and every little thing. And the text where he apologizes for snapping at her while she was thumping his neck because he was tired could have written by my husband. Not because he's abusive, but because sometimes I do cutesy little things like that, like tap him or tickle him, annoying stuff, and sometimes he's just not in the mood and tells me to stop. He always tells me later he's sorry, he was just tired or whatever, and hopes I'll keep doing stuff like, that.

I got the impression that the accent thing was more about a put on accent than her real accent, like how valley girls or the Kardashians speak. Again, I know it's unacceptable to tell her to stop talking that way, especially in public, but, again, I'm still reluctant to shout "ABUSE!" Again, I got that it was more out of irritation rather than the need to control. We're lacking context here.

I agree. There are probably small or large pet hates in many relationships. If Reeva smoked and OP didn't quite like it, it really couldn't be construed as controlling or abusive if he indicated this in a message. The fact that it was gum is neither here nor there.

I'm inclined not to take these things in isolation when judging OP's relationship with Reeva.
 
Exactly. The idea of him popping upstairs to stage the scene around fans and lights and such is a little hard for me to fathom. It's needlessly convoluted.

BIB If he did not rush upstairs to address any of those things or other similar things related to messing with the crime scene, then what was so urgent upstairs that he needed to leave the side of the love of his life, that had just died in a terrible accident, and all of the people that were there to help him and console him? I don't recall him bringing anything back down with him or coming back down with a change of clothes (a shirt) for modesty.
 
BIB If he did not rush upstairs to address any of those things or other similar things related to messing with the crime scene, then what was so urgent upstairs that he needed to leave the side of the love of his life, that had just died in a terrible accident, and all of the people that were there to help him and console him? I don't recall him bringing anything back down with him or coming back down with a change of clothes (a shirt) for modesty.

Dunno, he hasn't said.
 
And I'd be reluctant to call every douchey or moody thing a guy does abusive without the proper context. I'm not saying it's acceptable to criticize your gf's accent or gum chewing, but sometimes people can get irritable and every little thing your SO does annoys you. I tell my husband all the time to stop smacking his food, especially when I'm irritated, stop touching me, and every little thing. And the text where he apologizes for snapping at her while she was thumping his neck because he was tired could have written by my husband. Not because he's abusive, but because sometimes I do cutesy little things like that, like tap him or tickle him, annoying stuff, and sometimes he's just not in the mood and tells me to stop. He always tells me later he's sorry, he was just tired or whatever, and hopes I'll keep doing stuff like, that.

I got the impression that the accent thing was more about a put on accent than her real accent, like how valley girls or the Kardashians speak. Again, I know it's unacceptable to tell her to stop talking that way, especially in public, but, again, I'm still reluctant to shout "ABUSE!" Again, I got that it was more out of irritation rather than the need to control. We're lacking context here.

I don't recall him complaining of thumping his neck. Have you got a link please?
 
And I'd be reluctant to call every douchey or moody thing a guy does abusive without the proper context.

But the 'proper context' was provided .. in Reeva's messages .. she made it quite clear in those messages how she felt she was being treated, and that she felt scared of him at times.
 
With respect to the key being on the floor in the toilet room ...

Defence version ...

Reeva

Remember in this version Reeva has no idea what is going on and is in the toilet. All is quiet in the toilet when all of a sudden she hears Oscar screaming about intruders and for her to call to police. She is aware that Oscar was on the deck bringing in the fans. How would you process what she is hearing? She has no idea if there may be intruders or not. Does she even consider that Oscar is stupid enough to mistake herself as an intruder?

If it was me, I don't think I would make that connection. What would I do? I would quietly try to protect myself by quietly locking the toilet door and then I would phone if I had the phone and wait for more information. I would not yell out, as the whole package seems to be moving in my direction. I would be relying on Oscar to handle it as he has more information than I do. I might wonder if he saw them come in over the deck when he was outside, or whatever a mind would process not knowing what was going on ... Even after being shot how would she know who was targeting her? Oscar? Intruders? Would she break silence not knowing who was shooting?

Oscar

Oscar proceeds down hall with weapon and screams to Reeva to call police and admonishes intruders to get out of his house. Just as Oscar reaches corner going into the bathroom, he hears the sound of a click. He fires at the sound. Reeva still has grip on key as first shot is fired hitting her in the hip and driving her backwards into the magazine rack. Key is pulled out of keyhole and drops on the floor. There is a time lag between the first and second shot as Oscar processes the crashing of Reeva into the magazine rack. Having no clue as to what his weapon is capable of, all he hears is someone crashing around in the toilet breaking things. He targets the sound and fires three more times and stops. No more sounds. No more shots.

Again ... just working from defence model ...
:twocents:

BIB Hmmm I missed that. Does OP say that in his Affidavit or in his Plea Explanation?
 
I'd say that the context was provided in Reeva's messages though .. she made it quite clear in those messages how she felt she was being treated, and that she felt scared of him at times.

And like Reeva might have done, I let my husband's moodiness affect me and take it to heart when I really shouldn't since it's not personal. We eventually make up and move on, like OP and RS.

The scared texts are, again, something I'm reluctant to mark as a symptom of abuse. She said his anger and extreme behavior scared her. That's still not in context because Reeva is not here to explain what she means. Seeing someone that you love and who is normally nice act out of character can be "scary."
 
I'll try and find a screen shot.

OK, I have found the neck touching incident. Definitely no thumping. In fact, to me it seemed more like a tender touch.


http://drum.co.za/uncategorized/oscar-and-reeva-whatsapp-messages/

“I touch your neck to show u I care and you tell me to stop”

I think, as you say, in some relationships there are times when the people involved do not necessarily want to be touchy-feely at that point in time. I wonder whether he said it in an angry voice? We shall never know. However, he did seem very irritable at this point.
 
I am not sure I did say it had any bearing other than the fact that we believe Reeva would likely recognise a bad pattern and likely would want to remove herself from the relationship if she did indeed feel that way

.. but my point is that you don't even need to have been in an abusive relationship to start recognising controlling and abusive behaviour. I never had an abusive relationship in my life, until I met my abusive and violent ex partner at the age of 46, and it took about a month for all the signs to start creeping in and for me to start thinking .. uh oh .. there is something really odd going on here. No-one in an abusive relationship will ever notice anything untoward in the first couple of weeks or so of that relationship, because if you did you would be off like a shot .. the abuser will always be on their best behaviour then until such time as you have fallen for them hook, line and sinker .. and then it starts .. and by that time (even a couple of months in) you can't get out of it that easily. It is a known fact that the most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is the time when the abuser knows that the other person is about to leave that relationship and it is a known fact that that is the time when most women who are killed in a DV relationship, is when they have ended it/trying to get away.

but I am not in anyway criticising Reeva for staying with him after that because it seems Reeva was a very gentle easy going and forgiving person whereas I am very strong willed and intolerant
:-)

I wouldn't have said she was 'easy going' or not strong willed .. she definitely appeared to be forgiving .. but it's clear from her messages that she didn't stand any nonsense and was a very strong woman .. and I think this is what caused the problem with OP, and I think it was exactly because Reeva was strong willed and determined that annoyed him and set him off. She may well have been about to leave that relationship, after a blazing row .. and therefore would've been the most dangerous time for her in that relationship.
 
OK, I have found the neck touching incident. Definitely no thumping. In fact, to me it seemed more like a tender touch.


http://drum.co.za/uncategorized/oscar-and-reeva-whatsapp-messages/

“I touch your neck to show u I care and you tell me to stop”

I think, as you say, in some relationships there are times when the people involved do not necessarily want to be touchy-feely at that point in time. I wonder whether he said it in an angry voice? We shall never know. However, he did seem very irritable at this point.

He said she was tapping his neck. I don't think it really matters though.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/oscar-pistorius-trial-whatsapp-messages/

"I'm sorry I asked you to stop tapping my neck yesterday, I know you were just trying to show me love. I had a mad headache and should've just spoken to you softly."
 
OP seems to have found RS very irritating a lot of the time. He may have liked to have her on his arm in public, but that's about all imo.
 
With respect to the key being on the floor in the toilet room ...

Defence version ...

Reeva

Remember in this version Reeva has no idea what is going on and is in the toilet. All is quiet in the toilet when all of a sudden she hears Oscar screaming about intruders and for her to call to police. She is aware that Oscar was on the deck bringing in the fans. How would you process what she is hearing? She has no idea if there may be intruders or not. Does she even consider that Oscar is stupid enough to mistake herself as an intruder?

If it was me, I don't think I would make that connection. What would I do? I would quietly try to protect myself by quietly locking the toilet door and then I would phone if I had the phone and wait for more information. I would not yell out, as the whole package seems to be moving in my direction. I would be relying on Oscar to handle it as he has more information than I do. I might wonder if he saw them come in over the deck when he was outside, or whatever a mind would process not knowing what was going on ... Even after being shot how would she know who was targeting her? Oscar? Intruders? Would she break silence not knowing who was shooting?

Oscar

Oscar proceeds down hall with weapon and screams to Reeva to call police and admonishes intruders to get out of his house. Just as Oscar reaches corner going into the bathroom, he hears the sound of a click. He fires at the sound. Reeva still has grip on key as first shot is fired hitting her in the hip and driving her backwards into the magazine rack. Key is pulled out of keyhole and drops on the floor. There is a time lag between the first and second shot as Oscar processes the crashing of Reeva into the magazine rack. Having no clue as to what his weapon is capable of, all he hears is someone crashing around in the toilet breaking things. He targets the sound and fires three more times and stops. No more sounds. No more shots.

Again ... just working from defence model ...
:twocents:

This is a fantastic recreation. That's exactly what I've been thinking but have not been able to properly verbalize it. I have thought that the locking of the door is what caused him to shoot, OP thinking the person was coming out. The pause could be the initial shot, OP listening and waiting, hearing more movement and firing again until there's no more movement.
 
So were there 3 at the scene ?
I am going to re read the IT guys evidence because I definitely thought one was Reeva's . Unless I am confusing that with her phone .

The reason I would like to know is if one of them wasn't RS's, then where, how and on what was she working on the speech that she had said she wanted to work on for the next day? That was why she had initially asked if she could stay until 3pm that day since OP wasn't going to be home anyway, to get some work and washing done, iirc.
 
He said she was tapping his neck. I don't think it really matters though.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/oscar-pistorius-trial-whatsapp-messages/

"I'm sorry I asked you to stop tapping my neck yesterday, I know you were just trying to show me love. I had a mad headache and should've just spoken to you softly."

Thank you. I tend to feel, having read his whole message (which was written in a very irritated tone and where he seems to excuse everything he does) she probably was not thumping or tapping. I rather suspect she was stroking the back of his neck but this obviously was enough to aggravate him and is my opinion only. I don't somehow feel tapping would be showing her love, which she claims she was doing.
 
OP seems to have found RS very irritating a lot of the time. He may have liked to have her on his arm in public, but that's about all imo.

I agree .. as I've said in a previous post "a thorn in his side" .. and it's pretty clear to me that it was because she was a strong woman who kept telling him not to treat her like dirt. You can tell it really irked him to be told of his faults.
 
But the 'proper context' was provided .. in Reeva's messages .. she made it quite clear in those messages how she felt she was being treated, and that she felt scared of him at times.

I agree that the long message on 27/01 provided a good indication of how Reeva was feeling at that time. It was as if she wanted to get everything off her chest.

Some people let things pass rather than saying anything, and it does all build up to the point that they need to put their feelings across all at once.

The thing to note here is that this was Reeva showing anger and frustration towards OP, and rightly so, but we can tell a lot by OP's response.

OP didn't turn aggressor and turn it all back on Reeva. He wasn't even sarcastic or impolite towards her. He apologised, said his conduct was unacceptable and wanted to sort things out.

This can be a no-win situation as one can either say 'yep, he handled that in the correct way', or 'that's what guys like this do, they belittle you and apologise'.

How should OP have responded?

I would have worried if future messages indicated rowing and disagreement regarding these same problems, but there didn't seem to be anything in the later messages to indicate that they hadn't sorted out these problems.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
149
Guests online
514
Total visitors
663

Forum statistics

Threads
608,456
Messages
18,239,644
Members
234,374
Latest member
Username4
Back
Top