Trial Discussion Thread #17

[Gryffindor]

Previewing the DT pathologist testimony:

"During cross-examination, defense attorney Barry Roux suggested the magazine rack caused bruising on Steenkamp's back, the Telegraph said. Mangena disagreed, but Roux said the expert hadn't tested that theory.Roux also said the shooting sequence couldn't be determined, and Mangena again said, "I disagree with that." [UPI - Mangena's on stand]

I understand why Roux wants the head shot to be first, but what difference does it make whether RS's back bruises were from the ricochet or the rack? I think I read Roux also said or will say there was no ricochet, despite the one bullet hole in the wall. How would there being no ricochet help OP? Didn't he admit to firing 4 shots?

And Reeva would have had to present 4 bullet entry wounds, correct. Bizarre contention by Roux x

 

[fox1lady]

He might have assumed there were multiple intruders with automatic weapons. His intent was to shoot them and kill them dead before they could come out guns blazing and kill him and rape Reeva.

If there had actually been a gang of bad guys with AK's and they killed Oscar but were not hurt or killed by his 4 shots into the cubicle - then it would have been very bad news for Reeva. I assume that is exactly what Oscar was trying to prevent

If he was so concerned about Reeva's welfare he would have woken her and told her to run imo

 

[Gryffindor]

Sorry, I completely misunderstood.:blushing:

Ah that's ok. No problem ;-) x

 

[james83]

What was the response Oscar expected from the intruder(s)?

If the threat was farther away, downstairs or outside trying to get in, he might have woken Reeva to escape down the stairs but these were inside the on-suite bathroom, close, maybe 5 seconds away from the bed. So, quickly, quietly he retrieves his weapon and places himself between Reeva and the threat. Once he has space protecting Reeva, he warns them to vacate his house and yells for Reeva to call the police. He has a weapon pointed in their direction. You are Oscar. It is real and happening now. What would you do?

You have not heard what you wanted which was an evacuation back out the window or the words,"we give up don't shoot us!" Instead you hear movement and action around that toilet door. It all becomes very real and immediate. What would you do? Reeva is safe back in bed and there are intruders in the toilet and they aren't saying anything, but they are playing with the door handle. What will you do? ... Times is almost up ...

So, you decide to fire one shot towards the sound around the door handle. You don't fire center mass, you tip the gun down 5 degrees. Bang. You hear more crashing around but still no words of surrender. What do you do?

Please stay in character as well, no jumping between prosecution model and defence model. Defence model has Oscar believing the threat behind the door was about to come at him. What would you do?

Times up.

If the intruders were real are you dead or alive?

Again this is the defence model ...

It's really quite simple, you identify your target, "Who's in the toilet?", at which point Reeva say's " Oscar it's me".
There is no situation in South African law that allows anyone to shoot at a threat that is not identified.

 

[Viper]

The trajectory shows that the gun went from a slightly downward position towards the toilet in the first shot. Second shot was up quite a bit and had moved over to the right. The third and fourth shots have then gone back to the downward angle and have moved over to the right even more and are further down on the door. I would say that clearly shows movement.

MOO

:goodpost:

The trajectory shows that the gun went from a slightly downward position towards the toilet in the first shot. Reeva's body was standing parallel with OP's, his first shot seems an attempt to hit her center mass in the stomach, he hits her hip instead and now she is screaming bloody murder as she falls!

Second shot was up quite a bit and had moved over to the right. He fired upwards, he did not know yet that she had fallen or was falling down when he fired this shot, but it was another attempt at hitting her center mass. This is the shot that missed Reeva; one can only attribute her falling motion to this miss.

The third and fourth shots have then gone back to the downward angle and have moved over to the right even more and are further down on the door. It is obvious to OP now by her screams that Reeva is on the floor so he points downward and moves himself to the right to be able to aim at where he believes her voice is coming from; he is accurate in a shot to the arm that Reeva had up near her neck area and he is accurate with a shot to Reeva's head.

The screaming stops. OP stops firing anymore bullets at her because he is satisfied now that she is dead.

 

[Noisy Fan]

If he was so concerned about Reeva's welfare he would have woken her and told her to run imo

They were too close ...

 

[Gryffindor]

Previewing the DT pathologist testimony:

"During cross-examination, defense attorney Barry Roux suggested the magazine rack caused bruising on Steenkamp's back, the Telegraph said. Mangena disagreed, but Roux said the expert hadn't tested that theory.Roux also said the shooting sequence couldn't be determined, and Mangena again said, "I disagree with that." [UPI - Mangena's on stand]

I understand why Roux wants the head shot to be first, but what difference does it make whether RS's back bruises were from the ricochet or the rack? I think I read Roux also said or will say there was no ricochet, despite the one bullet hole in the wall. How would there being no ricochet help OP? Didn't he admit to firing 4 shots?

Even less time to allow for screaming??? (From DT's perspective)

 

[james83]

They were too close ...

So while Oscar is picking up his gun, he can't at the same time say "reeva someone's in the bathroom, get out the house".

 

[TorisMom003]

What was the response Oscar expected from the intruder(s)?

If the threat was farther away, downstairs or outside trying to get in, he might have woken Reeva to escape down the stairs but these were inside the on-suite bathroom, close, maybe 5 seconds away from the bed. So, quickly, quietly he retrieves his weapon and places himself between Reeva and the threat. Once he has space protecting Reeva, he warns them to vacate his house and yells for Reeva to call the police. He has a weapon pointed in their direction. You are Oscar. It is real and happening now. What would you do?

You have not heard what you wanted which was an evacuation back out the window or the words,"we give up don't shoot us!" Instead you hear movement and action around that toilet door. It all becomes very real and immediate. What would you do? Reeva is safe back in bed and there are intruders in the toilet and they aren't saying anything, but they are playing with the door handle. What will you do? ... Times is almost up ...

So, you decide to fire one shot towards the sound around the door handle. You don't fire center mass, you tip the gun down 5 degrees. Bang. You hear more crashing around but still no words of surrender. What do you do?

Please stay in character as well, no jumping between prosecution model and defence model. Defence model has Oscar believing the threat behind the door was about to come at him. What would you do?

Times up.

If the intruders were real are you dead or alive?

Again this is the defence model ...

I am guessing that this defense model is using OP's first version of the events from that night where he has Reeva completely asleep when he goes to move the fan in from the balcony.

There is no bullet hole that is aimed at/or near the handle of the toilet door.

The second version that OP gave has him speaking to Reeva before going out on the balcony to bring in the fans.

 

[Noisy Fan]

It's really quite simple, you identify your target, "Who's in the toilet?", at which point Reeva say's " Oscar it's me".
There is no situation in South African law that allows anyone to shoot at a threat that is not identified.

You died ... you took too long ... the door flew open and you were gunned down!

 

[steveml]

Screaming Test.

Asked whether, since that evening, she had heard sounds emanating from OP's home, Estelle Van der Merwe said she had.
She said last month, she was woken by loud male voices, which sounded as if they were fighting. When she looked out of the window, she saw a man leaving OP's home.

During cross-examination, Roux told Van der Merwe the sounds she heard on February 21 was the defense team conducting tests from OP's home between 2 and 3am.

'You would not have heard fighting and you know why? Because from your balcony, his bedroom is on the opposite side.'

Roux told Estelle Van der Merwe she never heard any arguing that fatal night.

'All you heard was a woman’s voice. You could not hear the words or language. It was far from your house. You did not even know from where it came.'

Estelle Van der Merwe conceded she had no idea where the arguing came from, and could not remember everything as it was more than a year ago, but she was adamant she had heard a woman embroiled in an argument.

 

[DebinGA]

If he was so concerned about Reeva's welfare he would have woken her and told her to run imo

... unimpeded, right out the broken bedroom door/s.

 

[minor4th]

Previewing the DT pathologist testimony:

"During cross-examination, defense attorney Barry Roux suggested the magazine rack caused bruising on Steenkamp's back, the Telegraph said. Mangena disagreed, but Roux said the expert hadn't tested that theory.Roux also said the shooting sequence couldn't be determined, and Mangena again said, "I disagree with that." [UPI - Mangena's on stand]

I understand why Roux wants the head shot to be first, but what difference does it make whether RS's back bruises were from the ricochet or the rack? I think I read Roux also said or will say there was no ricochet, despite the one bullet hole in the wall. How would there being no ricochet help OP? Didn't he admit to firing 4 shots?

I don't know why it matters what the order of the shots or whether there was a ricochet or the magazine rack bruised her back. From Roux' questions though I suspect his experts have found exactly what he put to Mangena.

 

[james83]

You died ... you took too long ... the door flew open and you were gunned down!

Oh dear, and now my girlfriend is in bed on her own totally exposed rather than escaping out of the house to safety, and it's all because i heard a noise and went charging out of the bedroom with my gun without saying a single word.

 

[Noisy Fan]

I am guessing that this defense model is using OP's first version of the events from that night where he has Reeva completely asleep when he goes to move the fan in from the balcony.

There is no bullet hole that is aimed at/or near the handle of the toilet door.

The second version that OP gave has him speaking to Reeva before going out on the balcony to bring in the fans.

While you were guessing, you too have been killed.

 

[minor4th]

You died ... you took too long ... the door flew open and you were gunned down!

Nice illustration of the defense case.

And I suggest that the law is not so simple as some suggest - that there's no situation that allows you to shoot to kill at an unidentified target.

I think the law takes into account whether the fear of imminent harm was real or not.

 

[Noisy Fan]

Oh dear, and now my girlfriend is in bed on her own totally exposed rather than escaping out of the house to safety, and it's all because i heard a noise and went charging out of the bedroom with my gun without saying a single word.

They were too close ...

 

[minor4th]

Oh dear, and now my girlfriend is in bed on her own totally exposed rather than escaping out of the house to safety, and it's all because i heard a noise and went charging out of the bedroom with my gun without saying a single word.

Yes, now you are dead and your girlfriend will be raped and killed because you did not neutralize the threat that you perceived.

 

[wishIknewmore]

Good question that I think Nel will ask....Why did you stop?
His answer will be interesting!

Its absolutely a great question! I wouldn't have used all the bullets (just in case) but I would have shot more than 4 times. Maybe he heard her fall? Even then it doesn't make sense when you have no idea what you are up against.

 

[jay-jay]

I guess he felt that nobody was going to survive that, and unfortunately he was correct.

Do we know how many bullets were in the magazine?

That may have been all the bullets that were loaded.

I'd like to know more on that though.

There were definitely more bullets left in the gun .. I was pretty sure I heard/read somewhere there were two left in there, but someone here said earlier that there was one left in the chamber .. so now I'm not sure which of the two it is, but there were definitely either one or two left.