Trial Discussion Thread #2 - 14.03.07, Day 5

[shane13]

I'm still trying to catch up but did Mr Baba mention anything about fighting, anything out of the ordinary when he went past the house at 2.20am during patrols? The witness across the road said she heard fighting and commotion an hour before the shooting ( loud enough to wake her up).

Carol:
The guard Mr. Baba's testimony here appears to [possibly strongly] contradict the one witness who said she heard arguing for the hour leading up to the shooting.

I have thought of this since I heard his testimony.
How strong a contradiction is this?
Is it possible, the pair took a short recess on their hour-long arguing [or call it Reeva's arguing?] and that happened to be just when Mr Baba and crew drove by?

This matter may be strongly contested by the 2 sides later.

 

[atthelake]

IIRC, the bottom part of the stairs can be seen from the outside, if the front door is open.

I believe it was Mr Stander and his daughter who were there.

Oh, thanks for that clarification if correct as I had thought it was his wife mentioned...that she was at the entrance to the house when the doctor came.. and the one that uttered "I hope this doesn't make the papers"

Can someone correct me/clarify? TIA

 

[Carol70]

I must say that I find this trial VERY hard to follow - perhaps as a cultural difference. As I'm used to ask/answer without obfuscation. So many compound questions by the defense attorney that is being attempted to answer and doesn't answer what I thought was being asked is VERY confusing.

Again, this must be a difference in cultures? Or is it a difference in folks that I associate with? Dunno.

Nope, I'm finding it hard too...things I would imagine are pertinent to the case are glossed over and trivial stuff harped on for ages over and over. Also, haha, I know we can be a lazy bunch but grief,the amount of time taking tea breaks and lunch is ridiculous. I've seen tons of complaints on SA boards cos each day spent in court is costing the tax payer money.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Yes, but did he hit the door out of anger, or out of desperation to get her out? That's the question, IMO. And when in the sequence did he hit the door?

The forensics will answer a lot, I agree.

Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you were querying whether he had his prosthesis on when he went back to the bathroom to bash the door not whether or not he did in fact really bash the door. I am sure he wouldn't have put it in his Affidavit if it were not the case. Also he wouldn't be able to balance properly on his stumps to successfully wield the bat or fire the gun.

I am very interested in the Doctor's testimony. He was the closest and should have had the most information. I have thought all along that hitting the door with a bat could not possibly create the same sound as a gun shots but maybe I am wrong. Given that this was a fully tiled bathroom it may have something to do with echos due to the hardness of the wall covering. Perhaps OP attempted to get at Reeva by hitting the door but failed, so in a rage he went and got his gun and shot her through the door instead, with the door panels finally being released due to the power of the bullets. I am looking forward to the PT's version of events.

 

[Carol70]

Oh, thanks for that clarification if correct as I had thought it was his wife mentioned...that she was at the entrance to the house when the doctor came.. and the one that uttered "I hope this doesn't make the papers"

Can someone correct me/clarify? TIA

I also thought it was mr stander and his daughter but I'm sure someone testified today it was his wife, I'm still going over today's testimony and will update when I get to it.

 

[shane13]

Nope, I'm finding it hard too...things I would imagine are pertinent to the case are glossed over and trivial stuff harped on for ages over and over. Also, haha, I know we can be a lazy bunch but grief,the amount of time taking tea breaks and lunch is ridiculous. I've seen tons of complaints on SA boards cos each day spent in court is costing the tax payer money.

Can outisiders view or post on any of these SA boards?
If so, maybe you can post a biggie?

 

[shane13]

I also thought it was mr stander and his daughter but I'm sure someone testified today it was his wife, I'm still going over today's testimony and will update when I get to it.

Hmmm.
Maybe wife and daughter? All the revious reports indicated Mr. Sander and his daughter, but... what's said in Court trumps media.
After following this closely for a year, it may be hard to separate some of the old from the new.

Please tell us if you find this soon.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Thank you Shane, for the clarification. I just re-listened to that section. This guard twice mentions being interested in OP's clothing - wanting to see OP's clothing. Yet the Prosecutor never asked any questions about this.

Apparently there must be a fairly large area of glass at the front door because the guard says "then he (OP) could see the five of us standing outside the door".
------------
When the guard was on telephone with OP he wanted him to come to the door so he (the guard) could see that OP was indeed "fine". "Then the conversation was ended" - a very polite way of saying OP hung up on him!

Shortly thereafter OP calls the guard back. The guard indicates he thinks this callback may have been a mistake on the part of OP. I agree.
---------

On the use of the cricket bat as a battering ram: Someone else posted this idea a while back. Think of OP holding the bat NOT in a position to be using it as you would use an axe, but rather to hold it crossways in front of you with one hand palm up and the other hand palm down. Now use arm strength to "batter" the door with one end of the bat. It would be easier to produce a quickly spaced "bang-bang-bang" sound if doing it in this manner.
--------------

Roux wised up there at the end and discontinued questioning the ex-girlfriend pretty quickly. Also, easy to miss, but the guard was not feeling well at the very end there. The translator looked at him and said "You alright?" Then Roux picked up on it and oh so nicely suggested they end for the day.

This was not a good day for OP.

 

[Carol70]

Hmmm.
Maybe wife and daughter? All the revious reports indicated MR. Sand his daughter, but... what's said in Court trumps media.
After following this closely for a year, it may be hard to separate some of the old from the new.

Please tell us if you find this soon.

Just found it, it IS his daughter, the confusion arose because the guard refered to her as Mrs Stander and not miss. That could have come about during the translation as I believe he gave his testimony in Xhosa.

 

[jilly]

OP might get a break (might, but maybe not) due to his celeb status, but I don't think the judge can or will ignore every charge against him. I'd be surprised if he didn't go to prison for some length of time. Might be less than he deserves, might be much less, but I think he will be held accountable for at least some of what he's charged with.

Thoughts?

At the very least I think he'll be found guilty of culpable homicide and that the Judge will give him the maximum - 15 yrs. It's already been said that in SA you can't just blindly shoot into a closed door. Four shots, as we've discussed was intent to kill. You actually have to be in fear of your life before you shoot at someone. Since he thought Reeva was still in bed, why didn't he just grab her and run down the stairs and out the door and call security. Seems to me when something like that would happen, your priority would be to look after your loved ones, alert them and make sure they are safe

What it all boils down to for me is that he went into a rage, lost control and killed her. There's some deep seeded anger issues going on with him. As soon as he realized what he'd done, he started to make up a story to get away with it.

 

[aa9511]

I'm still trying to catch up but did Mr Baba mention anything about fighting, anything out of the ordinary when he went past the house at 2.20am during patrols? The witness across the road said she heard fighting and commotion an hour before the shooting ( loud enough to wake her up).

I think he said everything was quiet and normal on his check, IIRC.

 

[jilly]

I'm worried he'll get off because he's a celebrity. It seems to me that celebrities always manage to avoid justice.

Maybe with a jury but I'm banking on this Judge to do the right thing.

 

[katydid23]

when the guard was speaking to OP on the phone, what language were they speaking?

I ask because of the confusion over the terms OK vs FINE. If one is translating from english, those terms are interchangeable. So I don't understand why Roux was making such a big issue of those two words.

 

[aa9511]

Nope, I'm finding it hard too...things I would imagine are pertinent to the case are glossed over and trivial stuff harped on for ages over and over. Also, haha, I know we can be a lazy bunch but grief,the amount of time taking tea breaks and lunch is ridiculous. I've seen tons of complaints on SA boards cos each day spent in court is costing the tax payer money.

Did you follow the Jodi Arias trial? I'm asking because in that trial, they would come in at IIRC 10:30 am....but of course the attorneys would have to go over things with the Judge first in chambers....delay, delay....so they would start at like 11:30 am....then I think lunch at 12:30 IIRC? Then break for lunch for 1.5 hours. Then come back for like one hour. Then break for 15 min. Then come back for another hour. Then done for the day. :banghead::banghead:

 

[Really?]

I'm still trying to catch up but did Mr Baba mention anything about fighting, anything out of the ordinary when he went past the house at 2.20am during patrols? The witness across the road said she heard fighting and commotion an hour before the shooting ( loud enough to wake her up).

If I remember correctly Baba said at the time of the 2 o'clock patrol all was quiet.

oh my I am a slow reader <blush>. sorry this HAS been answered.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Carol:
The guard Mr. Baba's testimony here appears to [possibly strongly] contradict the one witness who said she heard arguing for the hour leading up to the shooting.

I have thought of this since I heard his testimony.
How strong a contradiction is this?
Is it possible, the pair took a short recess on their hour-long arguing [or call it Reeva's arguing?] and that happened to be just when Mr Baba and crew drove by?

This matter may be strongly contested by the 2 sides later.

I think Baba said they last went through the security check which happens to be near OP's stand at 2.20 am when everything appeared normal. Estelle Van der Merwe said she heard arguing for about an hour before the shots at 3.17am. She, maybe, would not have known exactly how long the argument continued. I doubt whether she was clock-watching as she was in bed trying to sleep.
It may have been only 45 minutes but quite difficult for her to judge in retrospect.

 

[shane13]

Thank you Shane, for the clarification. I just re-listened to that section. This guard twice mentions being interested in OP's clothing - wanting to see OP's clothing. Yet the Prosecutor never asked any questions about this.

Apparently there must be a fairly large area of glass at the front door because the guard says "then he (OP) could see the five of us standing outside the door".
------------
When the guard was on telephone with OP he wanted him to come to the door so he (the guard) could see that OP was indeed "fine". "Then the conversation was ended" - a very polite way of saying OP hung up on him!

Shortly thereafter OP calls the guard back. The guard indicates he thinks this callback may have been a mistake on the part of OP. I agree.---------

On the use of the cricket bat as a battering ram: Someone else posted this idea a while back. Think of OP holding the bat NOT in a position to be using it as you would use an axe, but rather to hold it crossways in front of you with one hand palm up and the other hand palm down. Now use arm strength to "batter" the door with one end of the bat. It would be easier to produce a quickly spaced "bang-bang-bang" sound if doing it in this manner.
--------------

Roux wised up there at the end and discontinued questioning the ex-girlfriend pretty quickly. Also, easy to miss, but the guard was not feeling well at the very end there. The translator looked at him and said "You alright?" Then Roux picked up on it and oh so nicely suggested they end for the day.

This was not a good day for OP.

BBM

Thank you, Always (that does sound nice)

1st bold.
I have said from the outset that Roux was not asking the good, obvious questions. And a couple of days ago, I said that to me it is clear that Nel is also not asking many good, obvious questions. This one runs deep...

2nd bold. I missed that interpretation. Do you have exact quote?
If this is so, it is both fascinating and maybe very important!

 

[shane13]

I think Baba said they last went through the security check which happens to be near OP's stand at 2.20 am when everything appeared normal. Estelle Van der Merwe said she heard arguing for about an hour before the shots at 3.17am. She, maybe, would not have known exactly how long the argument continued. I doubt whether she was clock-watching as she was in bed trying to sleep.
It may have been only 45 minutes but quite difficult for her to judge in retrospect.

So you are saying that the guard was at OP's house at about 2:20?

Then that does not contradict the witness.

Your other points are also well thought out. So there may not be much contradiction to the earwitness hearing the loud arguing afterall. But I can see the 2 sides fighting over this aspect.

Thank you IB.

 

[shane13]

when the guard was speaking to OP on the phone, what language were they speaking?

I ask because of the confusion over the terms OK vs FINE. If one is translating from english, those terms are interchangeable. So I don't understand why Roux was making such a big issue of those two words.

Katy:
Going over this in my head.
Seems that Fine is stronger (maybe), and I can see why Roux wanted clarification.

I think there are connotations, viz OK is like passably good, while fine is closer to very good.

What say you Katy and all?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Katy:
Going over this in my head.
Seems that Fine is stronger (maybe), and I can see why Roux wanted clarification.

I think there are connotations, viz OK is like passably good, while fine is closer to very good.

What say you Katy and all?

The interpreter made the mistake and apologised to the court. Again a problem with the interpretation not the testimony. Baba corrected her in English, so it seems he speaks English too but perhaps not well enough for the court.