Trial Discussion Thread #2 - 14.03.07, Day 5

[minor4th]

Agree. I can easily see a case for second degree murder, but premeditated? There is literally nothing there.

I totally agree - I don't know that they have 2nd degree murder but they have some kind of reckless or negligent homicide, and I would not be at all surprised if he is found guilty of such an offense. Hard to say at this point before the Defense has put on their case.

 

[Jamtart]

I'm not. This is a worldwide broadcast. Nerves...emotions....she had feelings for Ocar.....He dumped her.....took Reeva to an Award's ceremoney. She's young..lots of emotion going on there. The breakdown was probably a release.

Yes, she was possibly feeling a bit overwhelmed by it all and managing to hold it together until that particular wound was re-opened and that tipped her over. I also think that maybe with her being so young he was possibly her first proper boyfriend/man she loved. I suppose the consideration has to be whether this affected her evidence, not necessarily deliberately but in more subtle ways...emphasis, points of recollection etc

 

[minor4th]

I didn't question the fact that he shot Reeva. The "facts" I don't accept are:

1. that it was dark
2. that he didn't know where Reeva was
3. that he didn't know who was behind the door

You referred to them as facts, but these have not so far been established as facts.

No they're not established - I'm just saying that the judge has enough just from his own statements to find him guilty of some kind of reckless or negligent homicide

 

[shane13]

I found ex-girl friend VERY credible.

She certainly was.

And when she started to cry, it was not a simple matter of losing her boyfriend.

As I posted earlier re OP threatening QvdB for dating ST and also ST forced to drop her "tell all" she received severe threats (of several kinds) and enraged behavior. Indeed it seemed both sides' attorneys decided not to go into it because her recall of what she went through was still unbearable to her.

So--if you only knew...

Therefore a very brave young woman and an excellent witness who indeed had several very important things to put on record.

I do not believe that, e.g. Roux dropped a planned long interogation of her out of pity. Rather he realized that some witesses further damage his client's chances with every addnl minute they're on the stand.

 

[lisasalinger]

Going back to Stipp's testimony from yesterday... the light in the bathroom being on DURING the female screaming and the subsequent second set of bangs that every witness has described as gunfire is disturbing.

What are the chances that a burglar is going to turn on the bathroom light in the middle of the night if they have just broken in to your home?

Surely Oscar didn't walk in to an illuminated bathroom and think a burglar was in there, did he?

Also, Stipp did not notice the toilet room light on, only the bathroom light on. If that's true, that the toilet room light was off (I'm wondering if investigators will confirm that in court) that means that Reeva was using the bathroom in the dark with the door locked. Sounds a lot more like hiding to me than it does just taking a quick pee at 3am.

 

[minor4th]

She certainly was.

And when she started to cry, it was not a simple matter of losing her boyfriend.

As I posted earlier re OP threatening QvdB for dating ST and also ST forced to drop her "tell all" she received severe threats (of several kinds) and enraged behavior. Indeed it seemed both sides' attorneys decided not to go into it because her recall of what she went through was still unbearable to her.

So--if you only knew...

Therefore a very brave young woman and an excellent witness who indeed had several very important things to put on record.

I do not believe that, e.g. Roux dropped a planned long interogation of her out of pity. Rather he realized that some witesses further damage his client's chances with every addnl minute they're on the stand.

How in the world could you possibly know that her crying was not a simple matter of losing her boyfriend?

 

[jilly]

Yes, she was possibly feeling a bit overwhelmed by it all and managing to hold it together until that particular wound was re-opened and that tipped her over. I also think that maybe with her being so young he was possibly her first proper boyfriend/man she loved. I suppose the consideration has to be whether this affected her evidence, not necessarily deliberately but in more subtle ways...emphasis, points of recollection etc

Otoh, she could have simply answered the questions honestly.

 

[atthelake]

Roux must have been aware how problematic Baba's assertion that OP stated "everything is fine" is under the circumstances...therefore I imagine that he was hoping Baba would say "I don't remember exactly the words he used"...giving Roux an opportunity to repeat several times "you're saying that you don't remember what he said, you don't remember, I put it to you that you don't remember what he said, I'm not doubting your integrity, not at all, I'm not doubting your integrity, but I put it to you that understandably you are confused, you don't remember. Also...we have carried out tests that prove that when Mr Pistorious is upset he speaks in tongues and "everything is *advertiser censored***d" changes itself into "everything is fine". But you don't remember" :banghead:

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Jamtart]

She certainly was.

And when she started to cry, it was not a simple matter of losing her boyfriend.

As I posted earlier re OP threatening QvdB for dating ST and also ST forced to drop her "tell all" she received severe threats (of several kinds) and enraged behavior. Indeed it seemed both sides' attorneys decided not to go into it because her recall of what she went through was still unbearable to her.

So--if you only knew...

Therefore a very brave young woman and an excellent witness who indeed had several very important things to put on record.

I do not believe that, e.g. Roux dropped a planned long interogation of her out of pity. Rather he realized that some witesses further damage his client's chances with every addnl minute they're on the stand.

Do you have a link to information about this...the threats, OP breaking QvdB's legs etc? Was any action taken against OP regarding this? Where did this information come from?

 

[minor4th]

Going back to Stipp's testimony from yesterday... the light in the bathroom being on DURING the female screaming and the subsequent second set of bangs that every witness has described as gunfire is disturbing.

What are the chances that a burglar is going to turn on the bathroom light in the middle of the night if they have just broken in to your home?

Surely Oscar didn't walk in to an illuminated bathroom and think a burglar was in there, did he?

Also, Stipp did not notice the toilet room light on, only the bathroom light on. If that's true, that the toilet room light was off (I'm wondering if investigators will confirm that in court) that means that Reeva was using the bathroom in the dark with the door locked. Sounds a lot more like hiding to me than it does just taking a quick pee at 3am.

It was Oscar screaming after Reeva had been shot. The subsequent set of bangs was not gunshots, it was cricket bat hitting the door. Oscar turned on the light and was walking in the bathroom. It could not have been Reeva screaming because she was already dead.

 

[minor4th]

I believe Roux dropped the questioning of Samantha because her testimony was irrelevant to the murder charge. She wasn't there, she didn't see anything or hear anything - Roux established that, and there's really no more to ask her.

 

[atthelake]

CNN special on this case is starting now (eastern us)

 

[shane13]

Do you have a link to information about this...the threats, OP breaking QvdB's legs etc? Was any action taken against OP regarding this? Where did this information come from?

That is both all over the internet, and the earlier threads that began with the crime itself and the BH etc.
These should all be readily found.

 

[Schuby]

I believe Roux dropped the questioning of Samantha because her testimony was irrelevant to the murder charge. She wasn't there, she didn't see anything or hear anything - Roux established that, and there's really no more to ask her.

If she was threatening to do a "tell all," and OP was leaning on her not to, it's probably one of those things where neither side wants to pursue it because no one comes away looking clean.

 

[shane13]

How in the world could you possibly know that her crying was not a simple matter of losing her boyfriend?

Already addressed in several previous posts of what she has been though.

She obviously got over him pretty quick ,in truth.

She went right out with Quinton vdB. It was OP who then went ballistic as is well known. And as I pointed out in a previous post.
Clearly a very brave woman who honestly testified to some very important points..

 

[minor4th]

I have no idea if the Judge will apply the evidence that has come out regarding the firearms charges to the murder charge, and even if she doesn't it won't negate its significance to me, personally.

IMO, the testimony regarding the firearms charges portrays a man who is not only dangerously reckless with firearms, but is also prone to episodes of rage, thinks it's perfectly acceptable to threaten others with his gun, has little respect for the law or law enforcement officers, and has demonstrated that he will not hesitate to lie to avoid criminal charges for his illegal actions.

As for OP admitting that he did, in fact, shoot and kill Reeva: what else could he do after security showed up at his house, after multiple witnesses had alerted security to the gunshots that rang out from his house, after his neighbor Dr. Stipp arrived at the scene, after multiple witnesses observed him carrying Reeva's lifeless body down the stairs of his house?

He had no choice but to admit that he had killed her. He was backed into a most precarious corner. His only possible way out of that corner was to claim that he mistook Reeva for a burglar.

Wait, when did Oscar threaten others with a gun?

Why can't it be that he admitted to killing her simply because that is what happened. There's absolutely no evidence that he was trying to blame it on someone else or would have blamed it on someone else if he had been able to.

As far as lying to get someone else to accept responsibility for his criminal actions - he accidentally discharged a firearm, it was an ACCIDENT and we don't know yet if Oscar asked someone else to take the blame or if someone else did that on their own or offered to do it. Either way, that is a far cry from intentionally murdering someone and looking for someone else to blame.

If he was going to blame someone else, would he have immediately shouted help, help, help? Would he be carrying her lifeless body down the stairs? Would he have called security for an ambulance?

 

[Jamtart]

Otoh, she could have simply answered the questions honestly.

Absolutely, I'm just considering possibilities. I've done some considerable amount of study in this area from a psychological perspective and there are so many different factors that can have a bearing on witness recollection and testimony...it would be very unusual for any witness testimony to be 100% correct or 100% incorrect. It is likely that all evidence given will be somewhere in between, depending upon our biases, experience, emotions, cognitive functioning etc etc different things will be remembered or forgotten, emphasised or de-emphasised. I wasn't at any point suggesting that she was being dishonest, I didn't think that at all actually

 

[minor4th]

Already addressed in several previous posts of what she has been though.

She obviously got over him pretty quick ,in truth.

She went right out with Quinton vdB. It was OP who then went ballistic as is well known.

The fact remains, you do not know why she was crying, and you do not know that it wasn't because she lost her boyfriend. She is obviously still upset and angry at him.

 

[minor4th]

If she was threatening to do a "tell all," and OP was leaning on her not to, it's probably one of those things where neither side wants to pursue it because no one comes away looking clean.

I was just reading up on the "tell all" - I guess she approached a news paper or media outlet and wanted to smear Oscar. That tells me something about her too - she has an axe to grind.

 

[aa9511]

The US style of court procedure during a jury trial is much easier to follow, as it's very organized with strict rules as to what counsel can bring up and what they can't (whether during direct examination, during cross, or during redirect). But I think it also has its drawbacks, in that there is little to no wiggle room. One of the things I'm coming to appreciate as I've watched this trial is that there seems to be a LOT of wiggle room in SA trial procedure - sometimes too much, though lol!

Roux's style of cross-examination drives me absolutely batty! ullhair: Rarely does he ask a simple question. Most of time, he delivers long-winded monologues that aren't questions at all, but come off as testifying by counsel. Other times, his questions are like easter eggs buried beneath a tangle of weeds that one can only discover after breaking out the weed whacker.

I'm beginning to suspect there's a method to his madness. I think he's purposefully trying to cause confusion with the goal of tripping up the witness. When I watch his face & body posture during his cross examination, he consistently has the look of someone who is either on the verge or in the full throes of a "gotcha" moment.

I'm amazed when a witness is able to follow & answer. I am also greatly amused when either the witness or My Lady says they don't understand the question, especially when, after Roux concludes one of his monologues, they ask "Was that a question?" :lol:

I find it very amusing how Roux will be talking to the witness, but LOOKING at the judge. So, it looks like he's talking to the judge, but really he's just making a point. And whenever he is MAKING A POINT, he directs it to the Judge, but by the rules, he has to pretend like he's talking to the witness. LOL!!!!