Trial Discussion Thread #23 - 14.04.11, Day 21

[molly333]

IMO NEL already has culpable homicide from yesterday if not before, but the fact he today got OP to admit that he went towards the danger to confront the burglar, stating he wanted to stand up for himself, imo is well on the way to murder.

Just because OP won't admit in words he intended to shoot at the intruder, obfuscating around shooting at the door, shooting by accident, not knowing why he shot, etc., imo will not clear him, because even were OP to convince the judge that he genuinely believed he and Reeva were about to be attacked the fact he went towards the danger gun in hand and safety lock disengaged, is contrary to SA law because to claim self defence an attack has to be real and imminent not imaginary, and before resorting to shooting you are obliged to take all possible measures to avoid confrontation. So I think it looks pretty grim for OP because as Sky's SA lawyer for the day just noted, and as I've been saying since I came here, it is of no importance who OP shot at just that it was a human being and by admitting he went to confront the intruder which was not his last resort he has turned himself into the aggressor to boot.

That said, things don't always work the way they seem so it would not surprise me if the judge, when weighing OP's state of mind, his disability, etc. and the reasonableness of his response to a perceived intruder, finds an extenuation to reason a reduction from murder to CH, even though it looks, feels and smeels like murder by transferred intent a possible result already contemplated in the charging doc where it states: "An error in persona will not affect the intention to kill a human being". SA's constitution has one of the strictest interpretations in the world in respect of right to life, even that of a burglar, and OP's acts and testimony are, the way I see it, in full frontal collision with that right.

S. Africa sounds like a nightmare place to live. It's not safe even inside a gated community, you have to bribe the cops, the cops will help themselves to what they want if you allow them in your house, you must do everything possible to preserve the life of an intruder bent on your destruction, you have to account for every bullet and the placement within your house of every gun and magazine. Time for every sane person to move out, if you ask me.

 

[shane13]

Don't forget the after-shooting events, possibly in connection as to which charge he might be guilty of.

Just a few things. Sitting and allegedly crying over Reeva for several minutes and not doing anythng to help her survive.
Later when security phones him (Mr Baba),telling Baba that "Everything is fine." I have shown a few weeks ago, using the timeline from Dr. Perumal that Reeva was still alive when OP said that to Baba. Much more, of course.

But the above apres-shooting events are not the actions of someone who "innocently' or "accidentally" shot someone who he wrongly thought was an intruder. They appear to be the actions of someone who wanted to make sure the victim would not survive.

 

[Patagonia]

While I can understand that OP is fighting for his life here, and is therefore (relatively understandably) trying to avoid certain 'semantics' and legal traps Nel is setting for him, I still couldn't help feeling extremely irritated by this stubborn unwillingness of his - to at least 'man up' enough to admit to at least the most frigging obvious! Particularly (that from yesterday) that his finger MUST have been on the trigger in that incident at Tasha's.

He insists he did not pull the trigger. Oh, so it was magic then? Oscar can hold a gun, shoot, but without pulling the trigger!

I mean, c'mon, you wont even admit to that charge?
You are innocent of ALL charges... right, of course.

And I don't think he has done himself any favors by pleading not guilty to those less serious charges, it just made him look like (pardon my French) - an *advertiser censored**hole. Who is so much more consumed by efforts to save his own *advertiser censored*, than by grief or remorse.


Also, by denying pulling the trigger at Tasha's, he so clearly and obviously demonstrated how he can and will keep up lying, if it suits him, and will say anything to cover his *advertiser censored*. Under oath. Religious and humble Oscar. Hm....

 

[steveml]

Speaking of that bedroom------how did Reeva manage to get out of bed, make her way to the door in the dark and with all that mess on the floor, open the door and leave, without OP noticing she had left?

The mess on the floor can work both for and against in that situation.
If she knew the floor was crowded on one side, all the more reason she would get out of bed on the other side.

 

[jay-jay]

No as they aren't televised in UK. And I work full time but on hols just now till Monday. This is the 1st I've watched. Thank you for your kind response.

There are lots of dramatised court cases on TV in the UK :thumb:

 

[DebinGA]

Hello all! I missed most of today, only caught the last hour. Please if you would tell me what was the new evidence from today. I'm seeing some in the past 5-6 pages, but it is mostly old arguments about what OP said long ago. What did OP say today? TIA

The most important thing I took from today was Nel taking OP through his alleged crime victim history and finding no verifiable evidence exists that any occurred. OP supposedly has such contempt for SA police that he never reported any crimes against himself/his stuff, with the exception of his stolen watches.

 

[jay-jay]

State and defense both agree quick succession. No double tap nonsense.

When did state agree on four shots in quick succession?

 

[Trooper]

S. Africa sounds like a nightmare place to live. It's not safe even inside a gated community, you have to bribe the cops, the cops will help themselves to what they want if you allow them in your house, you must do everything possible to preserve the life of an intruder bent on your destruction, you have to account for every bullet and the placement within your house of every gun and magazine. Time for every sane person to move out, if you ask me.

its quite a lovely place, molly.. I don't know where you come from, and it doesn't matter.. South Africans are a people who work hard, and live their lives, and have endured tremendous struggles, and over come struggles that many many nations haven't had to. Its a country of tremendous diversity, but there is a will there to make the darn thing work, which is an admirable and worthy process.. lots of counties don't have that aim.

 

[Gryffindor]

The mess on the floor can work both for and against in that situation.
If she knew the floor was crowded on one side, all the more reason she would get out of bed on the other side.

For Apollo, FYI, they're isn't a door between bedroom and bathroom. It's a mini corridor to an en-suite.

 

[soozieqtips]

OP did just about everything that night on instinct, regarding the perceived 'intruder'. That's why he can't confirm why he didn't take other options, like taking Reeva and escaping through the closest exit, the bedroom door. It's because he was acting on 'instinct' the whole time. Until that is, he discovered he'd 'accidentally' shot his girlfriend, and then his 'instinct' (bearing in mind how many times that 'instinct' was about 'protecting' Reeva) was to sit with her for 5 minutes and deny her urgent medical attention.

 

[jay-jay]

I think the court system works the same in SA as most countries, therefore witnesses are not allowed to watch the trial before testifying.
If you have already seen someone in the courtroom, they are either not being called as a witness, or they have already testified.

:smile:

.. and yet the weird thing, I find, is that the main and only eye witness to the killing is the accused himself, and he is able to sit there right the way throughout all of the trial hearing all of the witness statements, seeing all the crime scene photos, etc, etc, etc, .. and making notes all the time!

 

[BritsKate]

This really is just food for thought. All of us kinda have our opinions and they're pretty unlikely to change...I'm an American living abroad and, as such, really sensitive to an entire nation being painted with so broad a brush. You wouldn't believe the perception American television has given the world. I blame McDonald's too. My kids still have to contest that they don't eat cheeseburgers for breakfast. :biggrin:

South Africa has dropped 34 spaces on the Corruption Perception Index since 2001. It ranks 72 out of 177. There are issues there, post-apartheid, I'm not certain any of us living abroad can fully appreciate. Many issues with corruption seem to begin at the top and trickle down - influencing public perception.

But this is my real point - in every international case there are accusations of corruption and ineptitude. I haven't figured out what it means, mind you, but its definitely a recurring theme. Make of it what you will - I'm just careful not to make assumptions about a country I've never been to having been on the receiving end quite a few years.

 

[DebinGA]

Hello all! I missed most of today, only caught the last hour. Please if you would tell me what was the new evidence from today. I'm seeing some in the past 5-6 pages, but it is mostly old arguments about what OP said long ago. What did OP say today? TIA

The duvet on the floor was an extended bone of contention. OP earlier claimed he dropped the jeans he was about to put on the LED light onto the floor when he heard "the noise". Nel showed pic of those jeans on top of the duvet. OP contested pic, saying police had disturbed the scene. Also important, OP volunteered today that when he spoke to RS at 3-ish as he went for the fans, she was awake in bed with the duvet over her legs.

 

[Viper]

So I just read that OP is proud of himself for not shooting the man that kicked his butt, giving OP a black eye and a laceration that required stitches. Good for OP for using restraint the night of that incident. But somehow his logic and reasoning escapes me because he went commando when he perceived Mr. Armed Intruder was in his toilet closet??? :what:

 

[BlueShoe]

OP backtracked on what he said, again, and no he didn't claim to hear the door being unlocked unless that's what he "perceived" the wood moving noise was.... No worries.

Do you think the "wood moving" noise will be the magazine rack, according to DT? It seems like they have mentioned that magazine rack and its position so many times.

 

[soozieqtips]

Hello all! I missed most of today, only caught the last hour. Please if you would tell me what was the new evidence from today. I'm seeing some in the past 5-6 pages, but it is mostly old arguments about what OP said long ago. What did OP say today? TIA

Well, he now says he yelled at Reeva to 'call the police and security'.

 

[Angelo]

Just starting to watch Friday 4/11...only about 15 minutes into it and we have another item for Roux list...this Nell is so good...frankly he is more interesting to watch than JM (Jodi Arias) as he is so methodical. He seems to be reasoning right along with those in the gallery, watchers on TV and of course Milady. Roux is at his table madly trying to find the bail hearing and he knows Nell is right each time. I would imagine changing evidence is really bad in the eyes of a judge.

Oh boy he is tired again!!! Oh no sobbing. Wonder how long this will even go today. You can tell that OP has been told not to blame Roux anymore but he can't seem to help himself.

Nell has it "made to order evidence" ie "tailoring evidence" non stop...the judge sees it.

Nell is great. Love the way he says to Oscar, "we'll get back to that", and he does get back to it. Nell's attention to detail is outstanding.

 

[Viper]

The duvet on the floor was an extended bone of contention. OP earlier claimed he dropped the jeans he was about to put on the LED light onto the floor when he heard "the noise". Nel showed pic of those jeans on top of the duvet. OP contested pic, saying police had disturbed the scene. Also important, OP volunteered today that when he spoke to RS at 3-ish as he went for the fans, she was awake in bed with the duvet over her legs.

The jeans / duvet is so telling! Yes the duvet was ripped from the bed and the jeans were later thrown on / near the duvet. But consider this, there was blood on the outside and the inside of the duvet. So who was bleeding drops of blood before the duvet was ripped from the bed?

And so now OP admits that Reeva was awake and talking to him before he went commando in to the bathroom and killed? I need time to think. :facepalm:

 

[alioop]

As OP was armed facing the toilet door where he thought an intruder was hiding, wouldn't it have been reasonable for him to tell the intruder he had a gun and would shoot if he came out of the toilet. That's not been raised by Nel as yet. If he was able to yell and scream, he was capable of threatening the intruder, but didn't. He didn't give the intruder any opportunity to say, don't shoot me, I will stay here until the police arrive or whatever. He had the intruder cornered and OP had the upper hand in the situation. He was the aggressor, getting his gun and heading towards the intruder yelling and screaming.

Something is very very wrong with his version any way I look at it.

 

[soozieqtips]

Steenkamp was only 3 meters from Pistorius at the time behind the toilet door, the prosecutor said.

"She would've been terrified, but I don't think that would've led her to call out," Pistorius said,
arguing that Steenkamp would've assumed the danger was getting closer.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/11/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/

Except that Reeva would have heard no intruder-related sounds because it was her who was in the toilet. What she heard was OP charging towards the toilet screaming at an intruder that Reeva knew wasn't there. So Reeva being absolutely sure there was no intruder (having heard no sounds because she was the source of the sounds in OP's version) there's just no reason why she wouldn't have said "I'm in the toilet". And OP never once shouted out "Who's in the toilet" because of course, if he had have done, Reeva would have identified herself. The only sounds she heard were OP screaming and shouting and advancing towards her.