Trial Discussion Thread #25 - 14.04.14, Day 22

[Nausicaa]

One of the Sky News legal experts today said something along the lines of the more doubt that Nel casts on OP's version of events could mean the judge can completely reject all of his testimony and as she then only has the state's version of events that she has to accept it.

Reading other people's views on OP's intelligence, I think he's a very clever guy. His uncanny ability to pick up on specific words from Nel's questions, his clever determination to try and stick to certain key phrases, his amazing recollection of the crime scene photos and his belief that he knows what questions can and can't be asked whilst he's on the stand suggest a higher level of intelligence than he's being given credit for.

I think I'm right in saying that the judge is not obliged either to accept or reject the reconstruction suggested by the Prosecution. If the only reconstruction compatible with a verdict of Not Guilty is clearly false, there is no obligation to declare a guilty man innocent because one is not convinced by the details put forward by the Prosecution.

I do so agree with you that OP is not unintelligent at all. He is playing a very weak hand with consummate skill.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Today, OP admitted that it must have been Reeva who slammed the toilet door, and not the imaginary intruder. Now why would Reeva have slammed the door at all if there hadn't been an argument of some sort beforehand?

And why would you slam the door and simultaneously lock the door - only if you have fear of a persuer = OP.
"Slamming and locking" he said himself as an option - in my eyes another silly mistake/part of truth.

 

[liesbeth]

OP's version is that he shot Reeva (at about 03:00 according to all witnesses) and used the bat at 03:17 to bash in the door.

According to records he phoned Stander at 03:19. Baba called OP at 03:22:05. The Standers arrived after that.

OP carried Reeva downstairs with Baba and the Standers watching. This must have happened after the 03:22 call from Baba.

According to the arterial spurting on the walls, and his own testimony, Reeva was still alive at the time he carried her downstairs.

Both pathologists testified that her wounds were serious and that it was unlikely that she lived long after the shots.

So the shots could not have happened at 03:00. They must have been at 03:17.

This means that OP bashed the door with the bat at about 03:00. By his own testimony he used the bat three times. First it hit the frame, then a small piece of the door broke off and then a bigger piece with the third bash. But the door was still intact lower down because at 03:17 he shot Reeva through the door and then broke it open using the bat as leverage and then his hands. This fits in with Vermeulen's testimony about the bat and the door.

This fits with Van der Nest (the bloodspatter expert) and with both pathologists' testimony that she could not have lived long after the last shot. It also fits all the witnesses' accounts.

 

[DebinGA]

Thank you for posting exactly what I'm feeling as well.

So well said. Thanks again.

And Welcome!

:welcome:

Ditto what she said, TipDog. Looking forward to hearing much more from you.

 

[soozieqtips]

And why would you slam the door and simultaneously lock the door - only if you have fear of a persuer = OP.
"Slamming and locking" he said himself as an option - in my eyes another silly mistake/part of truth.

Oh yes. Slamming and locking at the same time! I bet OP wishes he hadn't used the term 'slam', because it's something people tend to do when they're hacked off about something. Reeva slamming the door kind of contradicts OP's claim that she went to bed 'loved' that night.

 

[Cherwell]

He is on trial for murder. All he has to remember is the truth and that doesn't change.

Unfortunately Oscar's truth is a "version" which changes like a chameleon.

 

[TrueDetective]

Personally I have not read a single post that supports Oscar.

I for one will never trust the majority conclusion based on the simple fact it is majority conclusion. Our history is filled with the majority conclusion being down right wrong.

I'm also not stating that Oscar has presented a reasonable, rational scenario for the way things played out, nor if it played out exactly as Oscar claims it did do I think he acted within reason.

I've seen a fair bit of support for OP out there, maybe not here. It makes me feel very queasy and uncomfortable.

But I totally agree with you regarding not following the majority conclusion. In general. I do so very rarely in my life and wish I had rephrased what I said but... in this particular case, the general consensus is correct and the majority are seeing it right. Because it really is that obvious. Humans know humans but this looks like a fish. It smells like a fish, it swims like a fish. It even sounds like a fish. It's got a big hook in its mouth... And it's called Oscar FishyStorius.

 

[Cherwell]

OP's version is that he shot Reeva (at about 03:00 according to all witnesses) and used the bat at 03:17 to bash in the door.

According to records he phoned Stander at 03:19. Baba called OP at 03:22:05. The Standers arrived after that.

OP carried Reeva downstairs with Baba and the Standers watching. This must have happened after the 03:22 call from Baba.

According to the arterial spurting on the walls, and his own testimony, Reeva was still alive at the time he carried her downstairs.

Both pathologists testified that her wounds very mortal and that it was unlikely that she lived long after the shots.

So the shots could not have happened at 03:00. They must have been at 03:17.

This means that OP bashed the door with the bat at about 03:00. By his own testimony he used the bat three times. First it hit the frame, then a small piece of the door broke off and then a bigger piece with the third bash. But the door was still intact lower down because at 03:17 he shot Reeva through the door and then broke it open using the bat as leverage and then his hands. This fits in with Vermeulen's testimony about the bat and the door.

This fits with Van der Nest (the bloodspatter expert) and with both pathologist's testimony that she could not have lived long after the last shot. It also fits all the witnesses' accounts.

:goodpost: Spot on IMO.

 

[Gryffindor]

If an abusive relationship were limited to physical violence, I might agree. Domestic violence, or rather, intimate partner violence as its now called extends far beyond physical abuse. And they changed it to IPV to encompass dating, same-sex, teen and other relationships that don't confine themselves to classic DV. Sadly, in some states, a victim is still unable to obtain a restraining order unless they are living with their abuser.

I don't know if Oscar was an abuser but I think there's a lot to suggest a mentality very common to someone who is. I do most definitely think he's guilty of being abusive towards her - I don't think anyone could really dispute that.

I really do believe if someone is scared of their partner, or their partner's reaction, even 10% of the time it's likely indicative that there's something well and truly wrong.

JMO and FWIW


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/...pistorius-before-her-death-is-heart-breaking/

It's still domestic violence here in Scotland/UK. Could be father/children, mother/children, brother/sister, boyfriend/girlfriend etc

 

[atthelake]

Here is what he says in his bail affidavit about the key:

I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive. I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom.

Thanks for the clarification.

Ok, assuming it was a deadbolt type lock, when you lock a door, the key is still "sideways" and you can't even pull it out. You have to make it go to "straight up position / or unlock position" by turning it right? So hitting the door isn't going to vibrate out a key.

Ergo, either key was in her hand when shot, or she put on floor after locking it (I'll nix #2 as option though)

hmmmmmmmmmm

Look forward to Nell asking him how he reached through the door and where was the key. And perhaps someone demonstrating it as he did today with the door slam to show the difficulty of such?

 

[katydid23]

I think the Judge is sympathetic to Oscar. She stepped in about 3 times today to stop or correct the prosecutor on Oscar's behalf.

I think she is trying to prevent appeals by the defense later on. She is protecting the trial, more than OP, I believe.

 

[soozieqtips]

Sky News doing a 30-minute round up of today's events right now.

 

[kittychi]

I remember a female cop to have spoken about. I may be wrong ....

Yes, it was a female police sergeant during a very early press conference by police the day after the shooting. She said they had been called there before for incidents "of a domestic nature" but did not elaborate.

ETA: Here it is:

"Published on Feb 14, 2013
Brigadier Denise Beukes: "I can confirm there have previously been incidents at the home of Oscar Pistorius - allegations of a domestic nature." The Paralympic star's girlfriend has been shot dead."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1auR6p8dphA

 

[liesbeth]

OP's version is that he shot Reeva (at about 03:00 according to all witnesses) and used the bat at 03:17 to bash in the door.

According to records he phoned Stander at 03:19. Baba called OP at 03:22:05. The Standers arrived after that.

OP carried Reeva downstairs with Baba and the Standers watching. This must have happened after the 03:22 call from Baba.

According to the arterial spurting on the walls, and his own testimony, Reeva was still alive at the time he carried her downstairs.

Both pathologists testified that her wounds were serious and that it was unlikely that she lived long after the shots.

So the shots could not have happened at 03:00. They must have been at 03:17.

This means that OP bashed the door with the bat at about 03:00. By his own testimony he used the bat three times. First it hit the frame, then a small piece of the door broke off and then a bigger piece with the third bash. But the door was still intact lower down because at 03:17 he shot Reeva through the door and then broke it open using the bat as leverage and then his hands. This fits in with Vermeulen's testimony about the bat and the door.

This fits with Van der Nest (the bloodspatter expert) and with both pathologists' testimony that she could not have lived long after the last shot. It also fits all the witnesses' accounts.

This also explains why her hands were in a protective position (the DT pathologist said that if she'd been surprised by the shots she wouldn't have had time to lift her hands) and why, according to Burger and Johnson, the intensity and the fear in her voice escalated just before the shots. She must have seen him right before the shots.

Edit: About the times:
Mrs. vd Merwe heard shots at around 03:00.
Mr. Baba testified that shortly after 03:00 a guard reported shots.
And Mrs. Stipp woke up at just before 03:00 (03:02 and her clock was 3-4 min fast) and heard the shots not long after she had woken up.

 

[TipDog]

Read my alternative theory # 2 in the post linked below. I think it describes pretty much what you are theorizing

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

I'm sorry, minor4th, but I don't see the correlation. I don't think this was about him ending their relationship or her ending it either. I don't see any evidence of that on either side, really (although, the evidence never paints the full portrait).

Instead, I believe something went down that day that angered OP. Something not connected to RS at all, but something she was trying to comfort him over and that is why she chose to go back over to his place.

I obviously don't know either of these young people, but when thinking about it, I wish so hard that he'd snapped at her in a text and told her not to come back. She'd be alive and none of this would have happened...at least, not to her. I don't wish it on anyone else, but I stand behind my opinion that this really had very little if not absolutely nothing to do with Reeva Steenkamp.

And that's what I mean by sinister. Some people are born violent and it isn't their environment, it's innate. I think OP is the perfect example of someone born with a propensity for violence. He's channeled it mostly through sports, but it's been brimming at the surface for awhile. (I base this on all the other accounts of his short temper coupled with him wielding a deadly weapon like a mere cigarette.)

So, again. Nothing to do with Reeva. A madman comes in many forms and can be very hard to spot - and I would think this especially true in SA where, from what I've read, is a great deal of violence.

This was bound to happen with OP. Now it has. And my gut tells me we will never know or understand why.

 

[Feynman]

I thought it was settled the other day with OP admitting that the gun had one up in the chamber and that he took the safety catch off and therefore it was ready to fire ?

Not quite. The gun was "one up" and OP ejected - not fired - that bullet from the chamber. But there was a magazine in the gun and another bullet was loaded into the chamber. OP, without checking for a magazine, pulled the trigger. There is no reasonable doubt about this: This gun has 3 auto-safeties and a trigger safety; the gun can't go off without the trigger being pulled.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Again not saying it makes him a murderer but there is definitely something very odd about his claim that they agreed not to make a big thing of valentine's day, can't get my head around that considering it would have been there first one, i honestly feel like she was much more into him then he was her and if anyone was going/or did end the relationship on the night of the 13th it was him, just the feeling i get when i think of the above and the evidence that certain thing's she did irritated him.

Years ago one of my sons had a longer discussion (his fault) with his girlfriend about such an agreement. She had a gift, he had nothing, he was insulted and angry. I will never forget. Men are strange sometimes. OP too. And possibly began the dispute ...

 

[TipDog]

Thank you for posting exactly what I'm feeling as well.

So well said. Thanks again.

And Welcome!

:welcome:

Thank you, Beach. :tyou:

I tip-toed onto this board as I understand and respect forum dynamics. I've been lurking for a long time and love reading the comments - all of them, those that do believe OP's side and those (like me) who don't. They are all valid and important to the discussion.

It really is a very complicated, heart-breaking trial. And at the end of the day, two families have pretty much been destroyed. And all of it happened in a matter of seconds.

 

[Britlaws]

Sorry but I must insist. The state may well not have proved its case fully and beyond reasonable doubt quite yet. We are only halfway through the trial after all. AThere are defence witnesses to x-examine yet, maybe rebuttal witnesses plus the closing arguments

With respect to the original poster I snipped the original post as I am only posting re the first part of TD's post.....

I think the case for murder is established. It is quite clear OP voluntarily picked up the gun, fired multiple shots of deadly black talon bullets with it into an enclosed space, either intending to kill the occupant(s) of said enclosed space or knew that the shots were likely to kill them or was reckless as to whether they would be killed. OP has admitted all this in his testimony and/or cross examination.

OP has raised the defence of self defence.... or was it involuntary action?! If he has adduced sufficiency of evidence to make putative self defence reasonably plausible, then the PT must prove beyond all reasonable doubt that OP did not act in self defence.

OP has raised, as far as I can see it, 2 main lines for his self defence
1) that he has a paranoia regarding crimes against him and
2) that he genuinely thought he was up against an intruder and was in fear of his life

I think that his #1 line has been scuppered. He's produced no evidence of having reported to police any crimes against him and hasn't been able to substantiate any of the crimes he says he has been a victim of. Despite his paranoia, he didn't mend the broke window, didn't seem to know if his alarm system was working properly, went to sleep with the doors open. I will accept that his disability potentially leaves him feeling more vulnerable that able bodied, but if that is the case, why run further into the danger zone? What so called vulnerable person does that?... god there's more of these but it's late here lol.

Re #2, to rebut this, the PT need to adduce evidence that proves, beyond all reasonable doubt, that OP knew it wasn't an intruder, which is why they are trying to prove he knew it was RS. Currently, I think the PT are winning on this one too, although we have yet to hear the defence case. Even if the DT magic up witnesses/experts who evidence that OP does scream like a woman, experts that challenge the ballistics and the police photographs etc. this isn't going to be enough in my view. There is too much reliance by OP that everyone is lying and conspiring against him and too many examples of him tripping up in cross examination. He's going to have to come up with something quite show stopping in my view to negate the PT's evidence thus far. Not saying he can't do it, just think it unlikely.

JMO of course.

 

[kittychi]

This is just what I was pointing out in my last post. Some people feel he should have more "don't knows", and others think he should remember every single detail. Nothing is obvious in this case. There is too much room for doubt.

Still...the truth stays the same. That is all he has to testify to.