Trial Discussion Thread #26 - 14.04.15, Day 23

[jassy writer]

I have addressed all those issues directed at me many times already.

I'll just redo ONE

There were not "5 independent witnesses" at all. The two couples are not necessarily each made up of two independent testimonies. Regardless, they heard screams at a time that it could not have been Reeva. She was dead. They were mistaken (IMO). I do not have the slightest problem with that. If OP's distressed screams gave the false impression of a woman screaming.. then I am not surprised that is how it sounded to both couples.
In addition.. one couple was so far away that their testimony should be given less weight, as it was at the extreme range of being able to hear clearly.

The 5th person heard woman's voice and crying (which she conceded was Oscar). She DID NOT hear any screaming.. woman or otherwise.

These two couples and one other witness were ALL the State could find with any hint of support for what they propose. There were maybe hundreds of potential witnesses in a radius set by the distance to the Burger(s) house.
So like the text messages, the State can find only a very small percentage that support their version (Though these witnesses don't necessarily do that). That leaves a large number of potential witness who don't support. No doubt we will be hearing from some of those who, beyond simply "not supporting" actually refute the State claims.

And, apologies, Rumpole, but if you state your theory as fact, I am GOING to call you out on it EVERY time...

The above, which I have bolded, is not proven. There is no proof that Reeva was dead at that time. It is simply the defence's theory. The prosecution has a different theory.

My own theory is that the noises of the bat breaking down the door were not as audible as the defence would like them to be, and in fact they happened during the panic and confusion when security was being called, people were making plans to go over there... Depending on how the bat was held, the noises might have been more muffled. No proof that the door was hit with a crisp, clear bang. It might have been rammed by the bat, which might produce a different, duller noise.

 

[minor4th]

The State overreached. I wonder why.

My opinion is that Botha got them into this with all of his speculation and theories presented as fact early on. Then they were stuck because of the PR issue and public opinion and pressure.

And it's not exactly uncommon for prosecutors to overcharge.

 

[jassy writer]

I am just wondering, would the judge take in consideration the Stipps' testimony with respect to a woman screaming or intermingled voices or is she just going to discredit this information in favour of more affirmative evidence? How are the witness statements evaluated in a situation like this? From a lay person's point of view I would put a lot of weight on for example Dr. Stipps. Does it happen often that the witnesses are mistaken or confused even if they have the best intentions?

Having multiple witnesses who heard the same thing (or similar) provides very strong evidence.

This is particularly important since testimony has also been given that Reeva, according to both prosecution and defence theory, was in a "state of fear" at the time the shots were fired, and would have been primed to scream, and would have screamed, when the first shot hit her.

 

[molly333]

How is that fatal to the case? Really don't understand this.

The State locked itself into a timeline it can't support.

In doing so, they threw out the earlier "gunshots" as being possibly made by the bat.

Looks like they did this so they would have "Reeva's screams" before the gunshots to support premeditation.

But, if it's impossible she was shot at 3:17, [because of the timeline] then she was shot at the earlier time and therefore those were not Reeva's screams.

 

[wb180]

The State locked itself into a timeline it can't support.

In doing so, they threw out the earlier "gunshots" as being possibly made by the bat.

Looks like they did this so they would have "Reeva's screams" before the gunshots to support premeditation.

But, if it's impossible she was shot at 3:17, [because of the timeline] then she was shot at the earlier time and therefore those were not Reeva's screams.

But how is the timeline wrong? Did PT actually say the earlier sounds have to be cricket bat sounds in their submission?

 

[jassy writer]

The State locked itself into a timeline it can't support.

In doing so, they threw out the earlier "gunshots" as being possibly made by the bat.

Looks like they did this so they would have "Reeva's screams" before the gunshots to support premeditation.

But, if it's impossible she was shot at 3:17, [because of the timeline] then she was shot at the earlier time and therefore those were not Reeva's screams.

Nope. The State's version is that the sounds which occurred close to 3.17 were the gunshots. This does not mean they cannot support their own timeline. Where is the proof that any witnesses at all heard OP breaking down the door?

 

[minor4th]

But how is the timeline wrong? Did PT actually say the earlier sounds have to be cricket bat sounds in their submission?

No they just ignore them and give no explanation at all for what they are ...as though we can just ignore that two witnesses heard them

 

[sleuth-d-]

If the shots were fired at 3:00 or thereabouts, then all the screaming heard by ear witnesses could not have been Reeva.

If that's the case the state has zero evidence to support premeditation.

3:00-3:10 timeframe for first bangs apparently.

 

[Rumpole]

Man this is so weird - somehow we now have "witnesses" that never gave evidence that overwhelming proves the witnesses are liars. Wow

You are misinterpreting what I said.

I never said ANYBODY was lying.

I said the two couples were mistaken in their interpretation of what they heard meant.

That is not even close to saying they were lying?

I accept that they heard screams.

 

[sleuth-d-]

The point about the two times of bangs and Nel doing logic somersaults to make Gunshots at 3:17 rather than 3:10 is......

ALL the screams heard were AFTER 3:10. (or in the range from 3:00 - 3:10)

It is critical to the States case to prove there were screams from Reeva and that OP shot her intentionally. If the shots were at 3:10 then the screams could not have been Reeva (she was dead) State have no evidence of Reeva screams.

bbm
would you like to clarify that?

 

[molly333]

But how is the timeline wrong? Did PT actually say the earlier sounds have to be cricket bat sounds in their submission?

Both sides agree that gunshots have to be before bat strikes [whether that's true or not.]

That works for the defense with gunshots at 300am to 310am and bat strikes at 3:17am.

If Reeva is shot 300am or so, those are not Reeva's screams because she wouldn't be able to scream.

The State, on the other hand, has locked themselves into gunshots at 3:17am because they want Reeva screaming before the gunshots for their premeditation.

That means everything else including getting her out of the closet with the bat has to happen after 3:17am.

 

[wb180]

No they just ignore them and give no explanation at all for what they are ...as though we can just ignore that two witnesses heard them

So the case is now fatal for PT because they have not provided an explanation of the sounds heard before the gunshots?

I thought the witnesses say they heard screams and then gunshots. When did they say the gunshots were?

 

[jassy writer]

The earlier bangs were accompanied by, and followed by, sounds of a fight and screaming.

There are a number of reasons why the bangs might have been heard in a fight. Doors slamming. OP hitting the metal bath panel. Damage done to the bedroom door... Another gun being fired out of the window... Who knows - we can only guess, but it would be wrong to pin down those bangs as gunshots and the later bangs as a bat hitting a door when we also do not know exactly how that door was broken down or what noise it would have made - there are different theories surrounding this due to the height of the marks on the door, which don't support a traditional cricket bat stance (which would have produced the loudest, crispest sound).

 

[minor4th]

Both sides agree that gunshots have to be before bat strikes [whether that's true or not.]

That works for the defense with gunshots at 300am to 310am and bat strikes at 3:17am.

The State, on the other hand, has locked themselves into gunshots at 3:17am because they want Reeva screaming before the gunshots for their premeditation.

That means everything else including getting her out of the closet with the bat has to happen after 3:17am.

And fails to explain the gunshots heard by the Stipps at 3 - 3:10

 

[jassy writer]

Both sides agree that gunshots have to be before bat strikes [whether that's true or not.]

That works for the defense with gunshots at 300am to 310am and bat strikes at 3:17am.

The State, on the other hand, has locked themselves into gunshots at 3:17am because they want Reeva screaming before the gunshots for their premeditation.

That means everything else including getting her out of the closet with the bat has to happen after 3:17am.

Molly, the bangs did not occur at 3.17 am... the phone call connected at that time. The bangs could have occurred two or three minutes earlier. This is very important in terms of timing.

 

[minor4th]

So the case is now fatal for PT because they have not provided an explanation of the sounds heard before the gunshots?

I thought the witnesses say they heard screams and then gunshots. When did they say the gunshots were?

The Stipps are the only ones who heard both sets of "shots." They heard a set of gunshots at 3:00 -3:10, followed by screams and crying, and another set of "gunshots" at 3:17.

 

[wb180]

You are misinterpreting what I said.

I never said ANYBODY was lying.

I said the two couples were mistaken in their interpretation of what they heard meant.

That is not even close to saying they were lying?

I accept that they heard screams.

You implied it because you said there were hundreds and hundreds of witnesses in that neighborhood and PT can only pick a handful - because by your argument, these handful of witnesses can be discredited because they are a minority to the hundreds and hundreds of witness who may or may not say the same thing - which is a weird argument.

 

[minor4th]

Molly, the bangs did not occur at 3.17 am... the phone call connected at that time. The bangs could have occurred two or three minutes earlier. This is very important in terms of timing.

The second set of bangs happened as Stipp was on the phone with security - phone records show that it was 3:16:51

 

[minor4th]

The earlier bangs were accompanied by, and followed by, sounds of a fight and screaming.

There are a number of reasons why the bangs might have been heard in a fight. Doors slamming. OP hitting the metal bath panel. Damage done to the bedroom door... Another gun being fired out of the window... Who knows - we can only guess, but it would be wrong to pin down those bangs as gunshots and the later bangs as a bat hitting a door when we also do not know exactly how that door was broken down or what noise it would have made - there are different theories surrounding this due to the height of the marks on the door, which don't support a traditional cricket bat stance (which would have produced the loudest, crispest sound).

Could also be gunshots as the Stipps both described them

 

[wb180]

The Stipps are the only ones who heard both sets of "shots." They heard a set of gunshots at 3:00 -3:10, followed by screams and crying, and another set of "gunshots" at 3:17.

I like your selective commas on your gunshots lol

Anyway,s what about the other witnesses? I thought they heard screaming and then one set of shots at the later time or was it the earlier time? Or they don't know what time it was?