Trial Discussion Thread #26 - 14.04.15, Day 23

[jassy writer]

What I want to know, and what I am sure Nel will want to know as well, is:

Why did this defence expert do the sound tests outdoors on a shooting range?

He was right there, in OP's house, to do the light test. Why not attach a door to the toilet and do the sound test with the cricket bat on site?

My feeling is that they tried this and the results were less conclusive / dramatic / loud than the noise of a cricket bat in the open. Therefore they are using this as "proof".

 

[molly333]

And fails to explain the gunshots heard by the Stipps at 3 - 3:10

Right. And, Stipps is the most credible of all the witnesses. He actually calls security after the first 'gunshots' and screaming and his call to security marks the time of the second 'gunshots.'

And, he actually goes over there to help. He knows where it is coming from.

 

[Rumpole]

Not only is the State version time of 3:17 for shots impossible, but includes frantic bashing of the door that did not make a sound that was heard by close witnesses who attention had been alerted. It also STILL leaves the bang at 3:00 - 3:10 unexplained by the State. Bear in mind these were Bangs that awoke the Stipps. Dr Stipps (with military experience) was sure they were gunshots.

I find it telling that people will likely accept almost any old thing as being the source of these bangs that sounded like gunshots, yet the same people will not even entertain the notion that frantic banging of a door with a cricket bat can sound anything like gunshots?

 

[nastasya]

Except both sides have provided expert testimony that the gunshots were before the bat. So ....cricket bat didn't hit the door at 3:00 a.m.

The expert testimony was regarding one bullet hole, and one piece of wood that was ripped out, not the cricket bat hits.

 

[minor4th]

I like your selective commas on your gunshots lol

Anyway,s what about the other witnesses? I thought they heard screaming and then one set of shots at the later time or was it the earlier time? Or they don't know what time it was?

They heard screaming and then shots at 3:17. They didn't hear the gunshots at 3:00 -3:10 because they were asleep and were awoken by the screams.

 

[jassy writer]

Time will tell!

But I think that those of us who support the prosecution's theory will be able to say a very loud "I told you so" to all OP's supporters when the verdict is handed down.

 

[molly333]

I like your selective commas on your gunshots lol

Anyway,s what about the other witnesses? I thought they heard screaming and then one set of shots at the later time or was it the earlier time? Or they don't know what time it was?

The witnesses further away are all hearing part of the story.

Stipp heard the whole story and recorded the time of the second 'gunshots.'

I'm putting the commas because Dr. Stipp thought both sets were gunshots and we know they weren't.

Or, at least, both sides agree they weren't.

 

[minor4th]

Right. And, Stipps is the most credible of all the witnesses. He actually calls security after the first 'gunshots' and screaming and his call to security marks the time of the second 'gunshots.'

And, he actually goes over there to help. He knows where it is coming from.

Yes, I found Dr Stipp to be the most credible of the ear witnesses.

 

[sleuth-d-]

That's incorrect, and illogical on it's face.

The experts identified that one piece of wood was ripped out after one gun shot. There is no way to tell if the cricket bat hit was before or after the gunshots.

OP himself testified that the bat hit the door and damaged it. Then subsequently he ripped out the wood.

agreed.

and equally, the gunshots sounded at least somewhat like cricket bat hitting door.
so they could have been mixed.

1st bangs. one shot and then 3 cricket bat hits
2nd bangs. three shots

only one shot passed through a crack. and had to come before that particular crack was created. the first bullet has been said to be the one hitting the hip. why is this? why could it not have been the one that missed?

 

[shane13]

I hope the Court decides it is not reasonable. What those Black Talon bullets did to Reeva's body is beyond the acceptable line of self defense, IMO...especially considering she was unarmed and locked behind a door.

I mean, really? Shoot then ask questions later? All over the sound of a window opening?...or so the defendant (killer) claims.

Yes, and don't forget OP answered correctly to the gun-seller questionnaire, that under those conditions, it was illegal for him to fire.

He was not on stand long, so maybe easy to forget him and his testimony.
But Nel will sure remind on summary.

 

[Rumpole]

You implied it because you said there were hundreds and hundreds of witnesses in that neighborhood and PT can only pick a handful - because by your argument, these handful of witnesses can be discredited because they are a minority to the hundreds and hundreds of witness who may or may not say the same thing - which is a weird argument.

No I never implied anybody was lying

You are missing the point. Saying somebody is misinterpreting the source of what they heard is not close to saying they are lying.

I repeat. I accept they heard screams. They are not lying... as far as I know.

 

[molly333]

agreed.

and equally, the gunshots sounded at least somewhat like cricket bat hitting door.
so they could have been mixed.

1st bangs. one shot and then 3 cricket bat hits
2nd bangs. three shots

only one shot passed through a crack. and had to come before that particular crack was created. the first bullet has been said to be the one hitting the hip. why is this? why could it not have been the one that missed?

Yeah, unfortunately, the State has locked itself into gunshots before bat.

So that's the evidence we have to accept because both sides agree.

 

[minor4th]

agreed.

and equally, the gunshots sounded at least somewhat like cricket bat hitting door.
so they could have been mixed.

1st bangs. one shot and then 3 cricket bat hits
2nd bangs. three shots

only one shot passed through a crack. and had to come before that particular crack was created. the first bullet has been said to be the one hitting the hip. why is this? why could it not have been the one that missed?

But both state witnesses and defense witnesses said all the gunshots happened at the same time. Nel specifically acknowledged and agreed to this to the judge.

The judge is not going to come up with her own theory to prove Oscar's guilt when both sides agree on this.

 

[shane13]

By Oscar's own admission under cross examination, he did not fire at an intruder.

This means that the putative self-defense theory (with all its associated evidence of crime, home invasions etc) is now scrapped. Negligent discharge of the firearm (culpable homicide) is what he has now admitted to.

When Roux re-examined in an attempt to do damage control in this area, Nel was on the ball and very quick to request that he did not ask the witness leading questions. OP should have known better but at that time and on that stand he simply could not bring himself to say he fired his gun at anyone or anything, and the repercussions of this are really not good for his case.

how long was the re-examnation and when did that occur?
TIA

 

[BabaJ]

The earlier bangs were accompanied by, and followed by, sounds of a fight and screaming.

There are a number of reasons why the bangs might have been heard in a fight. Doors slamming. OP hitting the metal bath panel. Damage done to the bedroom door... Another gun being fired out of the window... Who knows - we can only guess, but it would be wrong to pin down those bangs as gunshots and the later bangs as a bat hitting a door when we also do not know exactly how that door was broken down or what noise it would have made - there are different theories surrounding this due to the height of the marks on the door, which don't support a traditional cricket bat stance (which would have produced the loudest, crispest sound).

The first set of bangs could have been shots as well as the second set of bangs IMO, however, some posters are correct that the prosecution has not explained the first set of bangs. This is why it is so frustrating and there are so many theories on what has happened. On the other hand, if one would like to accept Oscar's version of the events, there are too many inconsistencies - things simply do not jibe. Also, I am not totally bought on the version of shots before bats as in my opinion the witness' explanation was not conclusive. But maybe I am missing something.

 

[molly333]

Nope. The State's version is that the sounds which occurred close to 3.17 were the gunshots. This does not mean they cannot support their own timeline. Where is the proof that any witnesses at all heard OP breaking down the door?

Dr. Stipp heard it. He called it 'gunshots.'

He heard two sets of gunshots with screaming in between.

The defense proves bat sounds like gunshots.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I am just wondering, is it crack or cracks? Was there confirmation that the crack(s) were caused by the bat or tearing the panels? I have to go back and check if the bullets went through the bat marks or the cracks. I am just trying to figure out whether the sequence could be:

- bat and/or other object
- shots
- torn panels

or

- shots
- bat and/or other object
- torn panels

Can somebody provide a link with clear explanation? I am a little bit confused, there was discussion on two possibly bat marks and then other marks on the door, from what I understand the other marks were not clearly identified either. To my understanding (and I am often wrong only two marks on the door were identified as bat marks. Could the cracks in the door be the result of prying the panels after the shots?

it was just one crack. i have attached the image previously, but will do it again.

interesting that when states 'door' expert talked about said crack, roux cut him off before he could talk about the other bullets in the wood.

prying the panels could be done quickly after the initial hole was made, and without the loud bangs.

bullethole [D] has the crack.

imo, you are right to question the order of bullets/bat noises... i have posted separately about the order.

 

[molly333]

The first set of bangs could have been shots as well as the second set of bangs IMO, however, some posters are correct that the prosecution has not explained the first set of bangs. This is why it is so frustrating and there are so many theories on what has happened. On the other hand, if one would like to accept Oscar's version of the events, there are too many inconsistencies - things simply do not jibe. Also, I am not totally bought on the version of shots before bats as in my opinion the witness' explanation was not conclusive. But maybe I am missing something.

I agree. It's a totally confounding case.

But, it doesn't matter whether you agree on shots before bats because the State and Defense agree on that, so that's the evidence.

That's partly why we are saying the State has locked itself into a version of the case that doesn't work.

 

[steveml]

Correct and if OP was wearing that light grey "wife beater"(that's what they're commonly called in my part of the world) undershirt that was beside his bed, that would fit the description. Especially since Mangena had measured OP and he is 1.55 not 1.1 metres on his stumps. 2.5cm=1 inch so 45cm=18 inches, correct?

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-was-pistorius-telling-truth

To feel the need to include that phrase makes your point weaker, not stronger.

 

[jassy writer]

To feel the need to include that phrase makes your point weaker, not stronger.

To continually use sarcasm and bash the prosecution makes all YOUR points weaker, not stronger.