Trial Discussion Thread #30

[Emz73]

I know what you mean. I have had to make a conscious effort to just 'leave it alone' as I have a horrible habit of wanting the last word when I believe I am right and therefore continuing exchanges long past the point of usefulness!:blushing:

Its made me really look at myself. When its an ex saying I did terrible thing or I caused him to do whatever, I hated it. I'm not being blamed for his pathetic lies and behaviour. I should of just let it go and ignored him/blocked him. But its so hard!!! I can see Oscar in my ex. They are cut from the same cloth.

Now I've bored you myself!!
Anyway back to the topic in hand.

 

[TrueDetective]

Hi, Viper, likewise.

I'm being a little stubborn here, but without his prosthesis or some type of handicap car, he'd fall in the category of disabled (he couldn't drive a normal vehicle). Well, he would here in the states, anyway. Not sure about SA law.

But I think it's fair to say that he's on stumps, not feet like the rest of us, and that he's disabled due to that. He likely doesn't have great mobility on tiles, like he said. Which is another reason why I think he's lying - he was wearing his prosthesis the entire evening he killed RS. I just don't see him chasing her around on stumps.

I'd have to side with tip here viper.
Although his whole attitude and ethos is "I don't have a disability" in the terms that most of us understand it - and its a great and admirable quality - having both feet or lower legs is absolutely a disability and here in the UK he would be entitled to (and very likely would!!) claim state disability benefits.

 

[Emz73]

True.

I wonder whether the caring and nurturing aspects of her nature which seem to come through from her messages and the recollections of her friends made her think she could 'help' Oscar to fight his demons.

Also, on a more cynical note, they were being touted as SA's Golden Couple, so who knows what external managerial influences there may have been encouraging them both to hang in there.

Oh yes, you think if you can just let them see that you love them, tell them how great they are, they'ill get over their insecurities. Never works, they don't ever change. They don't want to because they've learnt it works.
Agree about the manager, golden couple gets more press, more press more sponsership.

 

[TrueDetective]

OP lists his injuries from the boat accident in the BBC Inside Sports interview as:

Broken cheekbone,
Broke the floor bone of his eye,
Broke part of his nose,
Broke bridge of his nose,
Jaw wired shut

While showing the interviewer his MRIs and Cat scans and explaining his injuries, OP is smiling like it was no big deal and even jokes that once his jaw was no longer wired shut (about a week before it was unwired) that he has been eating steak non stop.

Oh this is all too painful to read right now!
At least my jaw is fine.. Been eating like a good 'un

 

[shane13]

True.

I wonder whether the caring and nurturing aspects of her nature which seem to come through from her messages and the recollections of her friends made her think she could 'help' Oscar to fight his demons.

Also, on a more cynical note, they were being touted as SA's Golden Couple, so who knows what external managerial influences there may have been encouraging them both to hang in there.

Well your first para is the classic woman trying to remake the bad boy. uusally doesn't go well.

Now re your 2nd para. Yes Reeva seemed very lovely. But none of us are saints. There are SA model poeple who have said that 'Reeva was saavy to the game.' Meaning: to go places in modeling you need much publicity. So...

re their relationship, prob. was only around 10 dates or so.
To me what has come out almost sounds like she forced herself to "love" him.'

If that makes sense.

 

[Viper]

Alas this is similar to ignoring.

Re Reeva and OP, if there was arguing from the getgo, and esp. after the speeding incident where OP would not listen to Reeva's entreaties to slow down, and she had to call her Mom to tell OP if he didn't slow down and if anything then happened to her daughter, she'd get the Mafia after him...

Yes, we know hindsight is 20/20, but she should have ended it right there.

Heartbreaking

I never really thought about this much. But if you are trapped in a car with someone driving you 150mph on a public roadway and they refuse your pleas to slow down or stop and let you out, I guess the only thing you could do is call someone and tell them what was happening to you. In this case Reeva chose to call her Mom. If you put yourself in the passenger seat of that car it would be terrifying and you would feel vulnerable and exposed to dreadful physical harm.

 

[weeeva]

I also wonder why OP wouldn't have put his legs on. In a video it showed him slipping them on like a pair of slip on shoes.

Considering his legs are his livelihood I can't imagine that he would take the risk of injuring himself by overlooking something that doesn't take 30 seconds. Plus the fact that it leaves him vulnerable, which I'm sure is always on his mind.

Somehow I don't think he would be too concerned about his legs, he would be concerned about his life. If you are dead your legs aren't much good to you. In such a situation a person's logic is tested to the brink. In the 30 seconds it would take him to put his legs on, he could be dead.

 

[whiterum]

What did they say to each other--in Oscar-Speak?

Have you ever tested the sound of wood such as a magazine rack leg hitting the top of a bald head .

 

[shane13]

I never really thought about this much. But if you are trapped in a car with someone driving you 150mph on a public roadway and they refuse your pleas to slow down or stop and let you out, I guess the only thing you could do is call someone and tell them what was happening to you. In this case Reeva chose to call her Mom. If you put yourself in the passenger seat of that car it would be terrifying and you would feel vulnerable and exposed to dreadful physical harm.

First we do not know the speed in the Reeva incident. The 155 mph was with Sokolove.

Then I was not faulting RS for calling her Mom.

I was indicating that it would have been wise and prudent to never see him again after his speeding AND not listening to her entreaties to slow down.

 

[Jake18]

Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a few weeks but promised myself I wouldn't get involved as i'm pretty busy. However, I was reading the extensive debate about time lines and then felt the need to add my two cents, like you do.

I'm very firmly in the gun shots last camp and I think Reeva's autopsy findings make Oscars "version" implausible. Prof Saayman testified that the head shot would have been fatal and this hasn't been disputed. It's also on record that Reeva would have been able, at the most, to breathe a few breaths following it. Reeva appeared healthy so it's conceivable that her heart would have beaten for some minutes following this respiratory arrest - based on the blood splatter analysis its been stated that she died (that is, her heart stopped beating as well) at the top of the stairs, at about 3:22 am IIRC. The PT has this time at about 5 minutes after the head shots at 3:17, the DT states that the first bangs were the gunshots , so around 3 am or maybe a bit later. Based on the ear witness testimonies the time after these first bangs to Reeva's death at the top of he stairs is about 15-20 minutes. To me, the latter time already seems implausible.

However, don't forget that on post mortem Reeva's heart muscle was pale, consistent with blood loss. Prof Saayman stated that there was about a 50% chance that her arm and hip wounds would also have been fatal, even if the head shot had not occurred. To survive the limb injuries Reeva would have needed major and prompt resuscitation - intubation/ventilation, copious fluids, volume expanders and blood products, trauma surgery and medication to support her cardiac function. And even with all of this she still had a good chance of dying.

If you consider the injuries separately it's possible that with just the limb injuries she could still have some cardiac activity after 20 minutes, given that she would have been able to breathe. However, hypovolaemic shock would have occured well before 20 minutes. Had the head injury been the only injury it's less likely but probably not impossible that there would still have been some weak cardiac activity after 20 minutes, bearing in mind though that she wouldn't have been able to breathe for this time. However, the combination of the two injuries - no oxygen and severe blood loss - means that the time from respiratory arrest (just after the shot to the head) and full cardiac arrest (top of the stairs) would have been shorter than with either of these injuries in isolation. To me, the idea that her heart beat for 20 minutes after a catastrophic head wound, after she stopped breathing and after she was haemorrhaging from severe limb wounds is highly, highly unlikely. I don't know why Dr Perumal is not testifying but I can only speculate that he's refused to go along with this nonsense.

Moreover, on cross exam, Oscar stated that when he entered the bathroom Reeva was "still breathing". As stated above, Prof Saayman said she would have, at the most, only breathed a few more breaths after the head shot. The shot would have severed her brainstem and respiratory control centre instantly. The most likely sequence of events was *headshot* - breathing stops, or *headshot* - a few reflexic breaths then breathing stops. NOT *headshot* followed by oscar sreaming up and down corridors, shouting off balconies and freshly breaking down the door in time to see Reeva breathe. If he's telling the truth abut this then he either prised open the damaged door within seconds or he could already see her through a crack in the door.

And for those who are skeptical of Prof Saayman's testimony because they know someone whose brain was blown from their skull by black talon bullets who breathed/talked/made a cup of tea/whatever afterwards then I suggest you give Mr Roux a call as the DT needs you. They seem to have a sudden vacancy in this area.

All IMO, although I'm comfortable with my physiology.

 

[TrueDetective]

What did they say to each other--in Oscar-Speak?

OP: "The cheque's in the post Mr. Dixon. I know you stuffed it all up but Barry says it will confuse everybody"

RD: "Can't you do cash instead, as I don't have a bank account. Or a postbox."

 

[shane13]

Have you ever tested the sound of wood such as a magazine rack leg hitting the top of a bald head .

Brilliant!

 

[weeeva]

Yep lets run with this story. U r hiding in the toilet.

Then suddenly u r shot on hip. U don't scream coz black talons doesn't hurt u and then get shot three more times.

Ur bf waits 17 minutes doing nothing but is screaming in a girls voice. After 17 mins, he starts to break down the door with the bat. Obvious it doesn't work but there was a key and opens the door. Oh he is still screaming and holding onto his gun.

Finds u dying but still alive. He doesn't call 911 but his mate because ur bf really wants to carry u rather than save u.

While ur mate arrives, ur bf pulls u out to close to front door and grabs some black bags, rope etc.

Anyways can go on but from the above ur bf isn't that good.
Edit - should have used husband as that was the scenario.

I don't remember hearing anything about rope, but what is your explanation for the black bags?

 

[Emz73]

Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a few weeks but promised myself I wouldn't get involved as i'm pretty busy. However, I was reading the extensive debate about time lines and then felt the need to add my two cents, like you do.

I'm very firmly in the gun shots last camp and I think Reeva's autopsy findings make Oscars "version" implausible. Prof Saayman testified that the head shot would have been fatal and this hasn't been disputed. It's also on record that Reeva would have been able, at the most, to breathe a few breaths following it. Reeva appeared healthy so it's conceivable that her heart would have beaten for some minutes following this respiratory arrest - based on the blood splatter analysis its been stated that she died (that is, her heart stopped beating as well) at the top of the stairs, at about 3:22 am IIRC. The PT has this time at about 5 minutes after the head shots at 3:17, the DT states that the first bangs were the gunshots , so around 3 am or maybe a bit later. Based on the ear witness testimonies the time after these first bangs to Reeva's death at the top of he stairs is about 15-20 minutes. To me, the latter time already seems implausible.

However, don't forget that on post mortem Reeva's heart muscle was pale, consistent with blood loss. Prof Saayman stated that there was about a 50% chance that her arm and hip wounds would also have been fatal, even if the head shot had not occurred. To survive the head injuries Reeva would have needed major and prompt resuscitation - intubation/ventilation, copious fluids, volume expanders and blood products, trauma surgery and medication to support her cardiac function. And even with all of this she still had a good chance of dying.

If you consider the injuries separately it's possible that with just the limb injuries she could still have some cardiac activity after 20 minutes, given that she would have been able to breathe. However, hypovolaemic shock would have occured well before 20 minutes. Had the head injury been the only injury it's less likely but probably not impossible that there would still have been some weak cardiac activity after 20 minutes, bearing in mind though that she wouldn't have been able to breathe for this time. However, the combination of the two injuries - no oxygen and severe blood loss - means that the time from respiratory arrest (just after the shot to the head) and full cardiac arrest (top of the stairs) would have been shorter than with either of these injuries in isolation. To me, the idea that her heart beat for 20 minutes after a catastrophic head wound, after she stopped breathing and after she was haemorrhaging from severe limb wounds is highly, highly unlikely. I don't know why Dr Perumal is not testifying but I can only speculate that he's refused to go along with this nonsense.

Moreover, on cross exam, Oscar stated that when he entered the bathroom Reeva was "still breathing". As stated above, Prof Saayman said she would have, at the most, only breathed a few more breaths after the head shot. The shot would have severed her brainstem and respiratory control centre instantly. The most likely sequence of events was *headshot* - breathing stops, or *headshot* - a few reflexic breaths then breathing stops. NOT *headshot* followed by oscar sreaming up and down corridors, shouting off balconies and freshly breaking down the door in time to see Reeva breathe. If he's telling the truth abut this then he either prised open the damaged door within seconds or he could already see her through a crack in the door.

And for those who are skeptical of Prof Saayman's testimony because they know someone whose brain was blown from their skull by black talon bullets who breathed/talked/made a cup of tea/whatever afterwards then I suggest you give Mr Roux a call as the DT needs you. They seem to have a sudden vacancy in this area.

All IMO, although I'm comfortable with my physiology.

:goodpost: Thank you.

 

[Viper]

First we do not know the speed in the Reeva incident. The 155 mph was with Sokolove.

Then I was not faulting RS for calling her Mom.

I was indicating that it would have been wise and prudent to never see him again after his speeding AND not listening to her entreaties to slow down.

OP was driving fast enough to scare the life out of Reeva, that is enough for my reply.

Regarding the BIB: My replies to your posts do not necessarily have to agree with your thoughts or your opinions or even your points. My replies only have to be my words.

 

[shane13]

OP was driving fast enough to scare the life out of Reeva, that is enough for my reply.

Regarding the BIB: My replies to your posts do not necessarily have to agree with your thoughts or your opinions or even your points. My replies only have to be my words.

i was not disageeing with you re the speeding, only wanted to make clear the 2 different incidents.

 

[mister happy]

I just watched an ABC News clip of the trial, and they said the judge's decision is expected to take months. Wow, why so long?

 

[Viper]

I can't explain how there would be arterial blood spatter two minutes after she was shot. It's obviously not arterial blood spatter from a beating heart.

That's why the kinked hose theory [thanks to Carmelita] is the only thing I've heard that could explain it if all the blood spatter experts say it looks like arterial blood.

There were no large pools of blood in the bathroom because she died immediately. There were no large pools of blood anywhere. Nothing like in your picture.

I Thanked this post Molly! :smile:

I believe that it was the compression and decompression of Reeva's body as OP was holding her and moving and readjusting his grip(s) on her body that pushed blood through the gunshot wounds. Imitating, for lack of a better word, the pumping of the blood that her heart would normally do at various places along OPs way from the bathroom to downstairs.

 

[BritsKate]

I'd have to side with tip here viper.

Although his whole attitude and ethos is "I don't have a disability" in the terms that most of us understand it - and its a great and admirable quality - having both feet or lower legs is absolutely a disability and here in the UK he would be entitled to (and very likely would!!) claim state disability benefits.

My argument isn't that he's disabled. That's pretty obvious. But there are people with much less mobility, much more vulnerable, with markedly less resources and acceptance. I just don't think comparing him to someone else disabled is a fair comparison.

And if Oscar were in the UK and not famous, he'd likely have to fill out a 30 page application, have several doctor referrals, wait upwards of 6 months for any reply, and then be told he has to go to a ' medical' assessment (which may or may not have medical personnel), likely nowhere near him, to 'prove' his disability. He'd probably be told it doesn't matter he can't make the stairs to his bedroom as long as there's a sofa downstairs - so stairs aren't an issue so he's not 'that' disabled. As a result he'd probably also be denied for benefit and have to appeal - and for the best shot at an appeal, employ the CAB which means more appointments for someone barely mobile. And all the while, he'd still have a mortgage, be constantly scared over bills and how to pay for groceries, still be fighting his job for ill-health retirement, cope with being considered a scrounger, fighting the assumption one's physical disability impedes one's mental capabilities, struggling through depression, desperately seeking answers from a medical community that doesn't know what next to do, and putting up with yobs who call him 'peg leg' and much, much worse.

I'm sorry to share my 'sob story' but Oscar's life is about as far as one can get from the grind of everyday, 'normal' disability.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[alioop]

In my part of the world (a small seaside community in Queensland Australia), I've detected very little interest in the case or in OP as a person, or as an athlete. That's why I hang out on WS.

I've not come across anyone else locally who is following the trial. On the few occasions when I've brought up the topic in conversation, people know of the case and they think that OP is guilty. To most, OP's claims are implausible here where there is a relatively low crime-rate and few firearms.

I can't say that this is representative of my larger community, or of any other part of the country. I'd be interested to know what people in other parts of the country are thinking about this - if anything?

Hi Bobbie, I am not far from you and I agree that there is very little interest in this case even amongst my local websleuthers friends. Gave you a little wave yesterday on my way home from a lovely week at Noosa.