Trial Discussion Thread #30

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  • #681
I am a big fan of behavioral sciences you will not find a single reputable source that will say that all people under a certain situation will respond in the same manner. Just think of the wide range of human personalities.

You will find statistics and norms but not an "always" humanity does not have a collective specific behavioral response to a fluid situation.

Yes. It never ceases to amaze me how people trivialize the effect the most complex organ in the body has on our behaviour.
It is the seat of everything. All our emotions, feelings, decision making, reason EVERYTHING. Here we are going about our business with all these nuero transmitters firing away, inside our heads at super rapid speed. Electrical signals going crazy in times of panic, stress, fear, dictating to us what we should or should not do.
Not that I really know what I am talking about, but I think I have the gist of it.
 
  • #682
Molly, she didn't "die instantly" and I've joined specifically to debate how the post mortem findings dispute Oscar's version. My post will be a a few hours away though as I'm busy. Anyway, after the head shot she suffered a full respiratory arrest but her heart would have beaten for some minutes afterwards allowing some arterial splatter. Prof Saayman stated that her breathing stopped and she would have been "incapacitated" after the head shot- this sounds pedantic but there's a difference between a respiratory arrest and a full cardiac arrest. In this case the former lead to the latter quite quickly but, with some conditions, it doesn't always follow, assuming of course the cause of the resp arrest is identified and treated. Obviously, Reeva's brain injury was untreatable.

BIB 1&2. I strongly disagree! Reeva did die, just as Saayman's testimony detailed it, within 2-3 breaths after being shot in the head. I don't know why folks want to argue with the findings of this professional.

If you only consider two things, the five gunshot wounds, including the severed right arm, and the lack of substantial blood loss (pooling), then it is impossible to go against Dr. Saayman's findings.

Below is a link to a video. It is very graphic! Please don't open it if you cannot handle seeing a man actually getting shot in the head, falling to the ground, and bleeding out massive amounts of blood from the gunshot wound to his head - some graphic videos like this cannot be "unwatched." Anyway this man did not die instantly, his heart was pumping after the gunshot to his head, and within 20-30 seconds the amount of blood that he lost from just one gunshot would have completely covered OPs WC floor:

Warning again, very graphic video!

LiveLeak.com - Bangkok protester shot in the head, bleeds out, later dies
 
  • #683
I Thanked this post Molly! :smile:

I believe that it was the compression and decompression of Reeva's body as OP was holding her and moving and readjusting his grip(s) on her body that pushed blood through the gunshot wounds. Imitating, for lack of a better word, the pumping of the blood that her heart would normally do at various places along OPs way from the bathroom to downstairs.

Nah, her heart was still beating. See my novel above, lol. Think about basic resuscitation, ie the ABCs. If you find an unconscious person you're supposed to check for breathing and a pulse. If there's an A issue (airway) you remedy that and if they're not breathing (B) you give them some breaths. If the resp arrest has been of short duration and something that simply ventilating them will fix and they've got a pulse they'll be OK. However if there's no pulse or circulation then you proceed with full CPR. Not breathing will often inevitably lead to no cardiac output but if the respiratory problem comes first then the heart will tire, weaken and then stop.
 
  • #684
Serious question

Can one have PTSD when they didn't suffer a traumatic event that someone/something else caused? Like with OP, there was no intruder. No one pointed a gun to his face, or a knife, or threatened his life. So can he really suffer from PTSD?

Yes they can. I watched something about it last week. But as usual I forget where I saw/seen it. Scuse my grammar I can't be bothered with it.
I always get stuck with seen/saw. What is the correct rule?
I'm sure one of you bright sparks will know. Thanks in advance.
 
  • #685
Oscar is whispering..no sorry he is telling him softly that when he gets out of jail he will break his legs

oops, shouldn't it read he was telling him in a "low voice"..........



Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
 
  • #686
BIB 1&2. I strongly disagree! Reeva did die, just as Saayman's testimony detailed it, within 2-3 breaths after being shot in the head. I don't know why folks want to argue with the findings of this professional.

If you only consider two things, the five gunshot wounds, including the severed right arm, and the lack of substantial blood loss (pooling), then it is impossible to go against Dr. Saayman's findings.

Below is a link to a video. It is very graphic! Please don't open it if you cannot handle seeing a man actually getting shot in the head, falling to the ground, and bleeding out massive amounts of blood from the gunshot wound to his head - some graphic videos like this cannot be "unwatched." Anyway this man did not die instantly, his heart was pumping after the gunshot to his head, and within 20-30 seconds the amount of blood that he lost from just one gunshot would have completely covered OPs WC floor:

Warning again, very graphic video!

LiveLeak.com - Bangkok protester shot in the head, bleeds out, later dies

I don't actually think we're disagreeing. Prof Saayman stated her breathing stopped instantly and I completely agree but without chest trauma as well her heart would have beat for some minutes afterwards. Her heart muscle was pale so there was significant blood loss. I don't need to see the video link, I've seen people die from trauma.
 
  • #687
Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a few weeks but promised myself I wouldn't get involved as i'm pretty busy. However, I was reading the extensive debate about time lines and then felt the need to add my two cents, like you do.

I'm very firmly in the gun shots last camp and I think Reeva's autopsy findings make Oscars "version" implausible. Prof Saayman testified that the head shot would have been fatal and this hasn't been disputed. It's also on record that Reeva would have been able, at the most, to breathe a few breaths following it. Reeva appeared healthy so it's conceivable that her heart would have beaten for some minutes following this respiratory arrest - based on the blood splatter analysis its been stated that she died (that is, her heart stopped beating as well) at the top of the stairs, at about 3:22 am IIRC. The PT has this time at about 5 minutes after the head shots at 3:17, the DT states that the first bangs were the gunshots , so around 3 am or maybe a bit later. Based on the ear witness testimonies the time after these first bangs to Reeva's death at the top of he stairs is about 15-20 minutes. To me, the latter time already seems implausible.

However, don't forget that on post mortem Reeva's heart muscle was pale, consistent with blood loss. Prof Saayman stated that there was about a 50% chance that her arm and hip wounds would also have been fatal, even if the head shot had not occurred. To survive the limb injuries Reeva would have needed major and prompt resuscitation - intubation/ventilation, copious fluids, volume expanders and blood products, trauma surgery and medication to support her cardiac function. And even with all of this she still had a good chance of dying.

If you consider the injuries separately it's possible that with just the limb injuries she could still have some cardiac activity after 20 minutes, given that she would have been able to breathe. However, hypovolaemic shock would have occured well before 20 minutes. Had the head injury been the only injury it's less likely but probably not impossible that there would still have been some weak cardiac activity after 20 minutes, bearing in mind though that she wouldn't have been able to breathe for this time. However, the combination of the two injuries - no oxygen and severe blood loss - means that the time from respiratory arrest (just after the shot to the head) and full cardiac arrest (top of the stairs) would have been shorter than with either of these injuries in isolation. To me, the idea that her heart beat for 20 minutes after a catastrophic head wound, after she stopped breathing and after she was haemorrhaging from severe limb wounds is highly, highly unlikely. I don't know why Dr Perumal is not testifying but I can only speculate that he's refused to go along with this nonsense.

Moreover, on cross exam, Oscar stated that when he entered the bathroom Reeva was "still breathing". As stated above, Prof Saayman said she would have, at the most, only breathed a few more breaths after the head shot. The shot would have severed her brainstem and respiratory control centre instantly. The most likely sequence of events was *headshot* - breathing stops, or *headshot* - a few reflexic breaths then breathing stops. NOT *headshot* followed by oscar sreaming up and down corridors, shouting off balconies and freshly breaking down the door in time to see Reeva breathe. If he's telling the truth abut this then he either prised open the damaged door within seconds or he could already see her through a crack in the door.

And for those who are skeptical of Prof Saayman's testimony because they know someone whose brain was blown from their skull by black talon bullets who breathed/talked/made a cup of tea/whatever afterwards then I suggest you give Mr Roux a call as the DT needs you. They seem to have a sudden vacancy in this area.

All IMO, although I'm comfortable with my physiology.

Great post, thank you. Many of us feel the first "shots" could not possibly have been the gunfire and have posted such earlier on this board. OP's story just does not lend itself to being credible. The Prosecution also think that the shots were around 3.17am but, unless I missed it, have never explained their timeline. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong. Maybe we will get to hear more in the next week or so in their summing up.
 
  • #688
Yes. It never ceases to amaze me how people trivialize the effect the most complex organ in the body has on our behaviour.
It is the seat of everything. All our emotions, feelings, decision making, reason EVERYTHING. Here we are going about our business with all these nuero transmitters firing away, inside our heads at super rapid speed. Electrical signals going crazy in times of panic, stress, fear, dictating to us what we should or should not do.
Not that I really know what I am talking about, but I think I have the gist of it.

BBM

Thing is, I don't think people have trivialised these. Therein lies 2 crucial elements that decide people's actions, i.e. motive/reasonability. It's then the circumstantial evidence that demonstrates what the 'neuro transmitters' have dictated. That in the main is what is being discussed at length. JMO
 
  • #689
Yes they can. I watched something about it last week. But as usual I forget where I saw/seen it. Scuse my grammar I can't be bothered with it.
I always get stuck with seen/saw. What is the correct rule?
I'm sure one of you bright sparks will know. Thanks in advance.
BBM - It's 'saw' if you're using past simple tense 'I saw'. You'd use 'seen' in the present perfect tense - 'I've seen'. Not that it matters here. Everyone's posts are easy to understand.
 
  • #690
The human body is not a hose.

As soon as Reeva's right arm was nearly amputated the heart pumped blood continuously out of the arteries in her arm.

In addition, her right hip had a hole blown through it, and her head also had a hole blown through it. The blood would have drained out.

See the attached photo. There was no kink in any hose. I'm not sure who came up with that analogy, but it is not completely inaccurate.

Dead bodies riddled with bullet holes do not squirt blood from arteries unless the heart is beating.

Her heart would not be pumping blood if she was dead and she was dead.

Bullet wounds do all kinds of different thing to individual bodies. There was a significant amount of blood in the bathroom, I am very weak of stomach so I am not going to get into describing Reeva wounds but with injuries so severe many things can happen to the body.

It is not anatomically impossible for her to have had a kinked or pinched artery that built up blood that was unkinked due to movement/smacking against something.

There is no other scenario that makes sense she was not shot on the staircase as the head wound or hip wound would have dropped her right there and there would be blood evidence of that.

She was not shot in the arm on the stairs as there would have been more blood between the staircase and the bathroom.
 
  • #691
Just telling you to act like OP if you think there is a intruder.

You need to tied one of your arms behind your back to mimic OP vulnerability as he also deliberately creates this vulnerability but not wearing his legs.



I'm sorry and you can color me dull but this simply makes no sense to me.
 
  • #692
BIB 1&2. I strongly disagree! Reeva did die, just as Saayman's testimony detailed it, within 2-3 breaths after being shot in the head. I don't know why folks want to argue with the findings of this professional.

If you only consider two things, the five gunshot wounds, including the severed right arm, and the lack of substantial blood loss (pooling), then it is impossible to go against Dr. Saayman's findings.

Below is a link to a video. It is very graphic! Please don't open it if you cannot handle seeing a man actually getting shot in the head, falling to the ground, and bleeding out massive amounts of blood from the gunshot wound to his head - some graphic videos like this cannot be "unwatched." Anyway this man did not die instantly, his heart was pumping after the gunshot to his head, and within 20-30 seconds the amount of blood that he lost from just one gunshot would have completely covered OPs WC floor:

Warning again, very graphic video

LiveLeak.com - Bangkok protester shot in the head, bleeds out, later dies

In jakes second post, he said 2/3 breaths after the head shot. I think you are saying the same thing. Anyway your both making the point. It wasn't at 3.00. More like 3.17(3.14) Which makes the witnesses hear gunshots not the bat. So more evidense 3.00 (2.56)noises were, the bat/air rifle/door kicking/bath panel hiting
Or different gun shootings at bedroom door (missing gun)
 
  • #693
Come on people. Cut with mocking Hope4More.
I even put cheese and water out for a house mouse once. I was terrified but I didn't want it to starve to death.
 
  • #694
What did they say to each other--in Oscar-Speak?

44f9c7567baa4dcd9966d72ade74c3c7.jpg

OP: Don't go to the toilet at nights. I get scared. Just sayin'.
 
  • #695
Correct.

There were no large pools of blood anywhere. This means Reeva's body was not slumped over the toilet for 18 minutes while OP ran around to the deck, down to the front door and back, sat with her for 5 minutes, etc.

The arterial spurts show that her heart beat for the last time on the walk down the stairs. When Stipp got to her she had no pulse.

I will offer just one possible scenario.

Reeva’s head could have been bleeding into the toilet, (Oscar could have flushed the toilet even though he doesn’t remember doing so) the act of gravity drawing blood from a slumped body is much slower than the heart pumping it out, her arm and hip both could have be positioned to stop the bleeding. It is most likely Oscar would have carried her in a cradled position, at some point nature takes its course and the pent up dam is released.


There are too many unknowns to to say that Reeva was alive when the arterial blood spray took place. IMO that suggestion flies against the evidence.
 
  • #696
I don't actually think we're disagreeing. Prof Saayman stated her breathing stopped instantly and I completely agree but without chest trauma as well her heart would have beat for some minutes afterwards. Her heart muscle was pale so there was significant blood loss. I don't need to see the video link, I've seen people die from trauma.

BIB 1. That is not what he said. He said Reeva died, after being shot in the head, within 2-3 breaths. He never said Reeva stopped breathing! Where did you get that?

<modsnip> Reeva had two holes in her head, a severed artery in her right arm with the humerus completely fractured and just a small amount of tissue remaing to keep that arm connected to her body, a gunshot wound to her hip that fractured her hip and pelvis, right? And yet there was just a tiny pool of blood left near her right hip on the floor. Argue all you like that she was alive but her body refused to bleed out from all of those gunshot wounds, but that is just not realistic. As I said, I think I will go with what the professional says on this issue, Reeva died within seconds.

<modsnip>
 
  • #697
I just watched an ABC News clip of the trial, and they said the judge's decision is expected to take months. Wow, why so long?

No idea - should be quicker. Hopefully she is writing the first draft of the judgement now! She better make sure it is appeal proof coz having a murderer on the streets isn't that good! :)
 
  • #698
Alas this is similar to ignoring.

Re Reeva and OP, if there was arguing from the getgo, and esp. after the speeding incident where OP would not listen to Reeva's entreaties to slow down, and she had to call her Mom to tell OP if he didn't slow down and if anything then happened to her daughter, she'd get the Mafia after him...

Yes, we know hindsight is 20/20, but she should have ended it right there.

Heartbreaking


Was there testimony to this? The Mafia part? I hardly see an out of control Oscar hearing someones mum say that she will get the Mafia after him and Oscar suddenly getting himself under control and slowing down.
 
  • #699
Does anyone think there is a possibility that Reeva grabbed the air rifle in the version that OP chased her up the stairs in a rage. She then locks herself in the toilet with it. Maybe that explains why he wasn't directly in front of the door but off to one side when he fired into it. He was cautious of her firing at him. Could one of his trips to the bathroom have been to remove the rifle from the toilet. Though I do think it would have likely got blood on it and surely it was tested for blood. But who knows! Just something that has been in the back of my mind for a while. Grabbing his precious rifle would have inflamed him even more.
 
  • #700
Gee. Maybe he was in shock after accidentally killing his girlfriend. And/or maybe for a few minutes he wondered if there was any way to conceal what he done, by accident, as he had to have known that his life was never going to be the same.

Once, long ago, I called the police to report domestic violence. I was single, living alone in an apartment and in the apt next to me I heard horrible screams, a man raging, things being broken, and what sounded like someone being literally thrown against the wall.

When the police came the abuser answered the door and said everything was fine, that he had just had " a little argument" with his girlfriend. The police didn't ask to see her, nor to enter the apartment. They accepted his word and left.

That was just joe blow. Somehow I imagine police would accept OP' s word and walk away had he chosen to take that route. He didn't.

One doesn't have to like or respect the man to try to see alternative reasons for each factoid in this case. Just requires taking a step back and not assuming every single thing that happened was because he is a Guilty Bad Man.

But OP did take that route .. he said to security 'everything is fine', just like the man in your anecdote about the domestic violence incident you reported. In fact it's absolutely classic for an abuser to say exactly that, so I don't really know what point you are trying to make by posting that, because it actually supports even further what we have been saying about this being a DV incident.
 
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