Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Gbtaketwo]

IIRC OP said that his arm was bent making his way along the passage towards the bathroom, not the actual shooting, but you are right, it would have been odd.

Yes and he was also crouched as he got to the bathroom ,fact which Nel had put on the record .

I was wondering if that was put on the record so that Nel could still say OP was in fact on his legs but then that would go against Vermeulen's testimony so am not sure at all why but am expecting a lot to be cleared up during closing arguments.

 

[Trooper]

Burger and Johnson were on their way to Mpumalanga for a holiday when they heard Oscar's bail application statement on radio. Burger stated clearly that what 'she had heard' didn't fit with what was in his statement.
They then approached their own attorney for advice on how to proceed.

In fact, I think she also stated that she was certain neighbors who were closer would have gone forward and stated exactly they (Burger & Johnson) had heard. Once she realized this was not the case - they acted.

I have no doubt others would have heard what they heard, but because of the 'accused' involved, would not have admitted to this. Oscar is not a fellow to be messed with - most knew this before the murder. I wouldn't blame those who remained silent.

Burger and Johnson deserve nothing but respect for even stepping forward. Nothing to gain, yet much to lose (which they would have been aware of)

And re: the aircons. You are so correct. Here in CT in summer (Feb) we often reach temps of 42 degrees celsius (98 degrees F - I suck at math....), which means my air cons often run all day and night. One hears VERY little from the outside, especially if one has the larger BTU units running.

It isn't any picnic being a witness in a murder case in South Africa... did they ever sort out those witnesses who went missing from that case that is running concurrently with Oscars??... I recall 2 witnesses were already murdered...

 

[Freya1977]

I think this is was OP trotted upstairs to do, that first time when Dr Stipp saw him go up and was worried OP might shoot himself (not the later time when the paramedics arrived and OP went upstairs again to fetch Reeva's ID from her purse*)


* hey look at me starting to use American terminology! (I've even started to spell 'defence' as 'defense' :blushing: :-D )

But..... The Stipps did say the bathroom window was open. Imo it probably stays open all the time, because OP really wasn't as paranoid about security as he would like everyone to believe.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Absolutely .. problem is that Roux promised that we would be shown an example of it, which has yet to be delivered IMO

If Roux wanted any sort of impact in terms of Oscar doing the 'Bee Gees', he should have played his 'unsound and unscientific' recordings to the people who testified about the 'female' screams in the first instant.

The fact that Barry didn't ask Burger, Stipp, Johnson and Stipp to have a listen, tells me all I need to know about this little experiment.
I have zero doubt that is going to be the first thing Gerrie 'puts' to whomever gives evidence on this farcical matter.

It's no good playing screams in court, when those who can definitively state: Yay or Nay have already left the building..............


Thinking of Dr Stipp now (I am rather fond of the man), does anyone have a link to his evidence, the part where Barry started on about 'bats and shots' and Stipp out of nowhere stated, "Could it not be bat first and then shots"?

Barry nearly collapsed into his robes and turned 5 shades of pink at that moment. The rather irritating Oldwage also reacted badly, shaking his head dramatically. It was right there (in the reaction of the defense) that the state won ONE of their most important rounds. Barry immediately dived into: experts will state it was the shots and then the bat.

I rather enjoyed that moment......would like to view it again. :floorlaugh:

 

[Trooper]

Oscar managed alright in Italy without his guns by the bedside.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

On that specific estate there would not have been a 2nd thought as to safety and security concerns. Had they lived in Lavender Hill on the Cape 'Flats' - different story and valid concerns indeed.

In fact, Oscar himself stated quite happily that his vehicles were always in the driveway - never locked in the garage. He sealed his fate there IMHO.

Even in traditional 'safe' areas people don't leave their vehicles in driveways here in SA. In fact, most South Africans, REGARDLESS of where they stay. It's crime fighting 101 stuff that.

Yet Oscar didn't. :fence:

I have been trying to find this out for a while without success and just wondered whether security guards on these type of estates are usually armed ?

 

[Freya1977]

Burger and Johnson were on their way to Mpumalanga for a holiday when they heard Oscar's bail application statement on radio. Burger stated clearly that what 'she had heard' didn't fit with what was in his statement.
They then approached their own attorney for advice on how to proceed.

In fact, I think she also stated that she was certain neighbors who were closer would have gone forward and stated exactly they (Burger & Johnson) had heard. Once she realized this was not the case - they acted.

I have no doubt others would have heard what they heard, but because of the 'accused' involved, would not have admitted to this. Oscar is not a fellow to be messed with - most knew this before the murder. I wouldn't blame those who remained silent.

Burger and Johnson deserve nothing but respect for even stepping forward. Nothing to gain, yet much to lose (which they would have been aware of)

And re: the aircons. You are so correct. Here in CT in summer (Feb) we often reach temps of 42 degrees celsius (98 degrees F - I suck at math....), which means my air cons often run all day and night. One hears VERY little from the outside, especially if one has the larger BTU units running.

Thank you CTC, I wasn't sure about that, I recall now about them saying they thought closer neighbours would have come forward. I remember thinking the same too... I couldn't blame people for not wanting to get involved in this nightmare.

As it was the Burger/Johnsons had their phone number televised and I understand they've been through a rough time, all because they've tried to do the right thing. Very sad.

 

[zwiebel]

Someone decided to shoot at a whistle by his gate in Cape Town yesterday. Managed to shoot his baby daughter dead instead.

http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global[_id]=117749

 

[east2west]

Sorry if this was already discussed, but who's GPRS-309 seconds at 01:48:48 was that activity attributed ? Is that voice call or internet, Oscar or Reeva? Thank you.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[Val1]

yes i watched the video you mention. have been staring long and hard at jeans on paving slabs today ... !!

That reminds me, has it been disclosed where RS' car keys were?

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Yes and he was also crouched as he got to the bathroom ,fact which Nel had put on the record .

I was wondering if that was put on the record so that Nel could still say OP was in fact on his legs but then that would go against Vermeulen's testimony so am not sure at all why but am expecting a lot to be cleared up during closing arguments.

My personal belief has always been that he was wearing his 'prosthetic legs' throughout.

I can't see a narcissist intimidating and threatening a woman throughout the course of a few hours (I believe he started 'sniping' as soon as he came home) from a position of 'weakness'.

His prosthetic legs and gun are both extensions of him - by his OWN admission, and he would want them both 'close' when playing at being 'powerful'.

His psyche would almost demand this.

The importance of Gerrie putting into record Oscar's "crouch etc" lit up Capt Mangena's eyes, one can see it clearly. This is exactly the type of evidence that could possibly result in a state application to re-open their case, and recall certain expert witnesses. IMHO. This would allow Vermeulen and Mangena opportunity. All applications to re-open the state's case, are always at the discretion of the judge.
I can see this happening, definitely once the DT's 'psychologist' has testified in any event.

 

[Val1]

Sorry if this was already discussed, but who's GPRS-309 seconds at 01:48:48 was that activity attributed ? Is that voice call or internet, Oscar or Reeva? Thank you.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

OP on the internet, no idea what though. :/

 

[Freya1977]

If Roux wanted any sort of impact in terms of Oscar doing the 'Bee Gees', he should have played his 'unsound and unscientific' recordings to the people who testified about the 'female' screams in the first instant.

The fact that Barry didn't ask Burger, Stipp, Johnson and Stipp to have a listen, tells me all I need to know about this little experiment.
I have zero doubt that is going to be the first thing Gerrie 'puts' to whomever gives evidence on this farcical matter.

It's no good playing screams in court, when those who can definitively state: Yay or Nay have already left the building..............


Thinking of Dr Stipp now (I am rather fond of the man), does anyone have a link to his evidence, the part where Barry started on about 'bats and shots' and Stipp out of nowhere stated, "Could it not be bat first and then shots"?

Barry nearly collapsed into his robes and turned 5 shades of pink at that moment. The rather irritating Oldwage also reacted badly, shaking his head dramatically. It was right there (in the reaction of the defense) that the state won ONE of their most important rounds. Barry immediately dived into: experts will state it was the shots and then the bat.

I rather enjoyed that moment......would like to view it again. :floorlaugh:

Oldwage is one irritating man indeed. The pompous arrogance just oozes from him. I find it hard to watch and listen to him and his mannerisms!

 

[jay-jay]

The first indication that he would be tailoring from the get go.

He was taking sleeve measurements.

Burger: I hard blood curdling female screams that faded out after the last shots.

Oscar (on his note pad) **Note to self, I screamed like I have never screamed before - must repeat this 12 times for court record. NBBBB!!! I stopped screaming when the last shot was fired and NOT a millisecond before. If Gerrie asks me why I didn't scream when I opened the bathroom door I will answer "what would the purpose have been?" ** Another note to self: :I'm smarter than these chumps.

Barry should never have given him a notepad IMHO. It was these notes he took that forced him to deviate from the 'planned' testimony. He would have thought himself terribly smart at the time (adding in additional 'information' to counter everything Burger, Stipp etc had to say).

We all know how this turned out. :floorlaugh:

I think that notepad should be handed over to the judge! :findinglink:

 

[Freya1977]

Sorry if this was already discussed, but who's GPRS-309 seconds at 01:48:48 was that activity attributed ? Is that voice call or internet, Oscar or Reeva? Thank you.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

I have a feeling it was explained as an app that was left open? Some apps continue to access the internet intermittently even when not used. I remember this being stated but am unsure if it was for the time of which you speak or not...

 

[patCee]

Gestalt means (roughly) looking at the whole picture. In this case all of the STATE evidence:

Two events KNOWN to produce loud bangs.
Two sets of bangs heard
State expert stating gunshots were first
Every witness that heard screams heard them after time of first bangs AND before time of second bangs.

Take that lot, and combine---->Gestalt

Gunshots-----> screams---> cricket bat

I think this is an over simplification. Individual events are also gestalt. e.g. the shots, what were the feelings behind them, and the actions, influences preceding and during those actions, the gestalt for that particular event. Just taking the time e.g. between 3 am and 3.25, there were a series of gestalts for each of the individuals involved, how they felt, where the feelings came from (learned/experience) and the actions taken. the results of their actions. All of these give clues/motives for the final outcome.

 

[Freya1977]

My personal belief has always been that he was wearing his 'prosthetic legs' throughout.

I can't see a narcissist intimidating and threatening a woman throughout the course of a few hours (I believe he started 'sniping' as soon as he came home) from a position of 'weakness'.

His prosthetic legs and gun are both extensions of him - by his OWN admission, and he would want them both 'close' when playing at being 'powerful'.

His psyche would almost demand this.

The importance of Gerrie putting into record Oscar's "crouch etc" lit up Capt Mangena's eyes, one can see it clearly. This is exactly the type of evidence that could possibly result in a state application to re-open their case, and recall certain expert witnesses. IMHO. This would allow Vermeulen and Mangena opportunity. All applications to re-open the state's case, are always at the discretion of the judge.
I can see this happening, definitely once the DT's 'psychologist' has testified in any event.

I agree and further, I believe OP would be too proud to be lounging around in the evening, brushing his teeth etc without his legs on, with his newish girlfriend there.

I feel he probably wouldn't take them off until he was just about to go to bed. Hell, he even leaves them pre - dressed doesn't he?

 

[asanque]

I haven't been able to reconcile the damage to the outside of bedroom door, because I could not think of any scenario where Oscar would have left the bedroom and Reeva could have locked him out.

I don't think she would have damaged the door had he locked her out, and I don't think she would have been able to physically push him out.

It just struck me that something that might fit, would be if they'd argued and OP reacted as he had with Sam Taylor, snapping and grabbing Reeva's overnight bag and rushing downstairs with it to her car, while shouting 'Get the *advertiser censored** out of my house!'.

If he'd then come back and found the bedroom door locked and a frightened Reeva behind it, saying she'd call the police, I can see things would have really escalated.

But for OP to replace the bag neatly upstairs later, before police arrived, would have required a very cool, calculating act. I'm not sure he was capable of that.

My theory is that he slammed the door in anger breaking it (part of the initial bangs heard by the Stipps) and triggering Reeva's run into the bathroom.

 

[Freya1977]

OP on the internet, no idea what though. :/

Couldn't be.... It would prove his entire story a lie immediately and we would know alllll about it. I'm pretty sure it was explained away, but not as actively being used.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

I have been trying to find this out for a while without success and just wondered whether security guards on these type of estates are usually armed ?

It depends on the classification of the guards concerned. There are various categories registered with Psira.

Armed response guards are always armed for example, and some security personnel will carry their own private firearms, depending on their designation.

I don't believe the "patrol" guards were armed at the time in this specific case. But the likelihood that one of their supervisors (or a reaction unit) was armed is great.

It is usually dependent on the individual and company involved.