Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Bazinga]

Before I go for a run - what kind of ear witness accounts would help OP's version? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious. No screaming doesn't help because he screamed.

Edited to say : I mean Oscar says he screamed.

If they can get two independent unmarried witnesses who live close by to say they heard no screaming Roux might say they were mistaken and there was no screams like a girl from oscar. Just like double taps were the DT version until it was implausible and then Oscar remembered firing the gun in a different way!

Seriously though, I've wondered if the testimony of domestic staff is sought or considered in a case like this? In SA?
I don't know what kind of ear witness would benefit the defence.
One who says lights were not on in bathroom?
One who says no arguing?

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

It isn't any picnic being a witness in a murder case in South Africa... did they ever sort out those witnesses who went missing from that case that is running concurrently with Oscars??... I recall 2 witnesses were already murdered...

Indeed. It is a daunting and terrifying prospect at the best of times. When there is a 'powerful' figure involved, it becomes worse.
Oscar's reputation and that of his family, would have played a rather larger role than some would imagine in terms of 'coming forward and sharing the goods'.

I will try to find out for you re: those witness deaths. Yes, I recall at last count, 2 had been killed. It is the case involving a rather notorious gangster if I recall correctly.

 

[Freya1977]

To those who believe Oscar to be innocent (i.e he really thought it was an intruder): I'm keen to hear theories on a few things (genuinely).

1. The metal plate on the bathtub. What could be the cause of this?

2. The jeans on the ground outside the toilet window?

3. OP telling Baba "everything's fine"

4. Why OP excluded such important information in his bail affidavit such as hearing the window, and hearing the door slam, and Reeva speaking to him when he woke up?

I'm genuinely interested in people's theories on these, as I came into this giving OP the benefit of the doubt but have pretty much changed my mind over the course of the trial.

 

[Val1]

My theory is that he slammed the door in anger breaking it (part of the initial bangs heard by the Stipps) and triggering Reeva's run into the bathroom.

Perhaps the bedroom door is the door he was referring to when he said he shoulder-charged it... sometimes if you listen closely, you can almost hear the truth, it's just very jumbled.

 

[Kaly99]

Quite possibly. Though they must have had something to say, else Nel woul not have had them on his witness list...... or are you suggesting that Nel was playing games... sticking names on his list just to stop people testifying for the defense?
I'll say again... the Stipps were GREAT witnesses (for the defense)
OP NEEDS people who heard BOTH sets of bangs, and he needs people who can confirm what he said about crying out AFTER the shots.

I couldn't agree more - can you imagine how very much worse OP's situation would be now if no witnesses had heard the first set of bangs? All we would know is that there was screaming followed by gunshots. He is very, very lucky that the Stipps (and van der Merwe, who I think heard the first set of bangs as well?) heard what they did.

Thinking of Dr Stipp now (I am rather fond of the man), does anyone have a link to his evidence, the part where Barry started on about 'bats and shots' and Stipp out of nowhere stated, "Could it not be bat first and then shots"?

Barry nearly collapsed into his robes and turned 5 shades of pink at that moment. The rather irritating Oldwage also reacted badly, shaking his head dramatically. It was right there (in the reaction of the defense) that the state won ONE of their most important rounds. Barry immediately dived into: experts will state it was the shots and then the bat.

I rather enjoyed that moment......would like to view it again. :floorlaugh:

Interesting interpretation, just shows how we all view things differently. I actually thought the exact opposite: that it was an absolutely critical moment for the defence, because it was the moment Dr. Stipp admitted he may have mistaken bat noises for gunshots...

 

[Val1]

To those who believe Oscar to be innocent (i.e he really thought it was an intruder): I'm keen to hear theories on a few things (genuinely).

1. The metal plate on the bathtub. What could be the cause of this?

2. The jeans on the ground outside the toilet window?

3. OP telling Baba "everything's fine"

4. Why OP excluded such important information in his bail affidavit such as hearing the window, and hearing the door slam, and Reeva speaking to him when he woke up?

I'm genuinely interested in people's theories on these, as I came into this giving OP the benefit of the doubt but have pretty much changed my mind over the course of the trial.

You forgot, why did he have his cell phone and thumb-drive/s removed from the crime scene instead of disclosing them to show he had nothing to hide?

 

[Kaly99]

Thanks very much - interesting and informative article. Going by it, it would seem that his DT has a big job ahead of them in order to avoid the murder conviction. I can't see how the circumstances will meet putative self-defense given that nothing happened in the moments before the shooting to have made Pistorius genuinely and reasonably fear that his life was in imminent danger.

For the murder conviction, it's only the "genuinely" side of things that counts, that is, the judge has to conclude OP genuinely believed his life was in danger. Whether he "reasonably" feared for his life is a question which only comes into play with culpable homicide. That's as I understand it, anyway.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

That reminds me, has it been disclosed where RS' car keys were?

Oscar probably looked for them (I'm sure if she was trying to leave Oscar would have tossed them somewhere in that room after grabbing them from her) when he 'disappeared' upstairs, and re planted them in her hand bag.

In the same way he planted his 2nd phone in the bathroom under the towel, allowing the police to think this WAS his only phone, whilst the other one was placed in his pocket......

For a traumatized man he sure was thinking pretty clearly.

:liar:

 

[Freya1977]

You forgot, why did he have his cell phone and thumb-drive/s removed from the crime scene instead of disclosing them to show he had nothing to hide?

Oh yes, I'm sure there is plenty more I forgot too... So many things... So much I just can't get me head around. Just doesn't fit.

 

[jay-jay]

But..... The Stipps did say the bathroom window was open. Imo it probably stays open all the time, because OP really wasn't as paranoid about security as he would like everyone to believe.

OK, thanks for that .. (BIB) ..

.. yes, you're right .. it does sound as if he's not particularly bothered about making sure it's locked, etc .. wouldn't mind betting he doesn't even put the latches (small bolts I think I can see in the photo?) down when he is away from the house .. I bet those bolts have never even been used! He just seems to be generally very lax about the whole of his security measures .. v.odd for such a supposedly paranoid person!

 

[Val1]

Couldn't be.... It would prove his entire story a lie immediately and we would know alllll about it. I'm pretty sure it was explained away, but not as actively being used.

I believe that was the part when Moller and Nel made sure the judge knew how to cross reference the data, so perhaps it just hasn't been disclosed to the public?

 

[asanque]

OP's story is that he didn't notice Reeva get up from the bed.

Let me set forward a complete rebuttal

1. OP testified that Reeva was sleeping on the right side of the bed but was awake at the time he went to move the fans.

2. OP claims that Reeva rolled over got off the left side of the bed and used the light from her mobile to guide her to the bathroom

3. OP has already committed to being just a foot away from Reeva when moving the fans (as he claims he did not see her move prior to the room being pitch black - and also having to walk past her).

4. Reeva would still have needed to retrieve her mobile phone (that would have been on the right side of the bed).

5. OP is therefore claiming he did not notice her fumbling for her phone right next to him (as it was pitch black). Alternatively, he is claiming that he did not see the light as she first turned on the phone despite being right next to her.

6. OP is also claiming that despite knowing he was awake, Reeva went to the bathroom using her mobile light (all without him noticing) and then opened the window and used the toilet without turning on the bathroom light.

I'd like to suggest those that believe OP's story to try a simple experiment.

1. Get into a pitch black room and stand facing the wall.

2. Get someone to stand a few feet away behind you and turn on a mobile

Its nonsensical that Oscar wouldn't have seen the light from Reeva turning on her mobile in his peripheral vision.

 

[Freya1977]

This thought has crossed my mind but it's just too crazy, but it did cross my mind...

OP preemptively tweeting something that would later corroborate his heightened sense of fear about home security...

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

I couldn't agree more - can you imagine how very much worse OP's situation would be now if no witnesses had heard the first set of bangs? All we would know is that there was screaming followed by gunshots. He is very, very lucky that the Stipps (and van der Merwe, who I think heard the first set of bangs as well?) heard what they did.



Interesting interpretation, just shows how we all view things differently. I actually thought the exact opposite: that it was an absolutely critical moment for the defence, because it was the moment Dr. Stipp admitted he may have mistaken bat noises for gunshots...

It would have been a 'win' for the defense if they weren't left with over 15 minutes +- in which Oscar would have then just screamed and ran around with Reeva STILL breathing in the bathroom and finally dying some 20 minutes later only.
In context of the state's argument that she died after the 3.17 shots, including the pathologists report re: death after the head wound, the state won that round.

The DT have had their pathologist on already. The ship in which Reeva lived for +- 20 minutes after the final shot has sailed for the DT.

My timelines are not accurate by any stretch. But having Reeva shot earlier, and living so long after, all whilst Oscar is running around screeching and doing very little else is beyond the realms of the possible.

If it were possible, Prof Botha - the DT's second choice forensic pathologist would have testified to it convincingly.

I would imagine?

But that's just me.

 

[Freya1977]

I believe that was the part when Moller and Nel made sure the judge knew how to cross reference the data, so perhaps it just hasn't been disclosed to the public?

Verrrry interesting. Would be extremely damning if he was using the internet while he was apparently sleeping. Or..... He could say Reeva must have woken up and been using it? But that's implausible... She wouldn't be using the internet on his phone.

 

[Val1]

This thought has crossed my mind but it's just too crazy, but it did cross my mind...

OP preemptively tweeting something that would later corroborate his heightened sense of fear about home security...

You mean just in case he ever felt the need for backup? Hmm I suppose anything is possible.... re tweets I still want to know what the story is behind that one that was sent around the night before on how to do Valentine's... a list of various things and then ending with something about make sure you shoot your gf 4 times. No one ever responds and it appears to have been scrubbed...

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

To those who believe Oscar to be innocent (i.e he really thought it was an intruder): I'm keen to hear theories on a few things (genuinely).

1. The metal plate on the bathtub. What could be the cause of this?

2. The jeans on the ground outside the toilet window?

3. OP telling Baba "everything's fine"

4. Why OP excluded such important information in his bail affidavit such as hearing the window, and hearing the door slam, and Reeva speaking to him when he woke up?

I'm genuinely interested in people's theories on these, as I came into this giving OP the benefit of the doubt but have pretty much changed my mind over the course of the trial.

Let me try.


1. The Tooth Fairy was inebriated and she fell into that plate. She also lost her bag of coins.

2. It was the stork M'lady. Instead of dropping a baby, it dropped a pair of woman's jeans.

3. In Oscar's world he is the only one that matters. As long as he wasn't hurt, everything WAS fine.

4. That bail hearing affidavit - that was ALL Barry's fault. He stuffed it up by leaving things out.

How did I do?

 

[Cherwell]

The only things that had to have happened after the gunshots at about 03:16 to 03:17 are:

a) OP breaks open the door (if it's already damaged by the bat this takes a few seconds);
b) He drags Reeva out of the toilet (again this takes seconds not minutes, remember no prints of him sitting or standing in the blood only lifting-and-dragging marks into the bathroom)
c) He gets his phone (the one he smuggled out of the crime scene?) and this is what we find:
03:18:45 – GPRS – 75 seconds
03:19:03 – Outgoing call to 2251 (Johan Stander) – 24 seconds
03:20:02 – GPRS – 79 seconds
03:20:05 – Outgoing call to 082911 (ambulance service) – 66 seconds
03:21:22 – GPRS – 61 seconds
03:21:33 – Outgoing call to 6797 (Baba, security) – 9 seconds (a misdial?)
03:21:47 – Outgoing call to 121 (voicemail) – 7 seconds (a misdial?)
03:22:05 – Incoming call from 6797 (Baba, security)

d) He picks her up and carries her down the stairs.

I have a question for you.

If he shot her at shortly after 03:00 why did the frantic texting and calling only start at 03:18:45? Because before that the only other phone activity was at 01:48:48 – GPRS – 309 seconds – tower closest to Oscar’s house.

AFAIK the 03:12 was from Mr. Johnson's notes where Roux said there was a woman screaming at 03:12. Unless I missed another reference?

Baba said that shortly after 03:00 a guard reported shots. Mrs. Stipp looked at her clock and it was 03:02 (3-4 minutes fast. Shortly after that she heard the first set of sounds.)

Your other question was what had to have happened after the shots at 03:16-03:17.

The things you mention here (the bat, the legs, the gun) could all have happened between the two sets of sounds.

They argue.
She's locks herself in the toilet.
He gets a bat.
He hits the door and makes a hole/holes in the wood in the process.
(Witnesses hear the first set of "shots." Willow wood on a Meranti door.)
(They also hear terrified screams.)
He goes to the bedroom.
He puts on his legs.
He gets the gun.
He goes back to the bathroom.
(Witnesses hear the intensity and fear in the screams escalate.)
He shoots her through the door.
(Witnesses hear the second set of "shots.")
(Witnesses hear the screaming stop.)
He uses the tip of the bat as a lever to crack the door then breaks it open with his hands. The straight crack runs through bullet hole D.
He drags her into the bathroom.
At 03:18:45 the texting and phoning starts.
After the 03:22 call he carries her down the stairs.
She dies on or at the bottom of the stairs.

Thank you, Liesbeth, for these brilliant summaries which deserve reposting.

 

[lithgow1]

For the murder conviction, it's only the "genuinely" side of things that counts, that is, the judge has to conclude OP genuinely believed his life was in danger. Whether he "reasonably" feared for his life is a question which only comes into play with culpable homicide. That's as I understand it, anyway.

http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/oscar-pistorius-criminal-law-101/

The above is the link CTC kindly provided and below is a quote from it which seems to say that 'reasonably' does indeed play a part when it comes to the murder charge vs putative self defence. So yes you are right in that 'genuinely' applies to his fearing for his life, while the 'reasonable' relates to how he reacted to that belief. Quite unreasonably, IMO.

'In a case where the state has proven that an accused had shot and killed another person in his house in the absence of an attack on his life or property, it would be difficult to escape conviction for murder unless the accused is found to have acted in putative self-defence. Where an accused is found to have genuinely believed that his life was in danger and that he was using reasonable means to avert an attack on himself or his property, he may escape conviction for murder on the grounds that he lacked the requisite intention.'

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Oh yes, I'm sure there is plenty more I forgot too... So many things... So much I just can't get me head around. Just doesn't fit.

You are like me.

These events really aren't that complicated. Oscar has muddied the waters in his attempt to escape any form of punishment, yes; but strip away his lies and add-ons, and one is left with a relatively simple story.

Things are exactly what they seem.