Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[steveml]

Apparently not for OP. He never checked with Reeva to see if she heard anything when he heard the 'intruders'.

That's correct, but it's never been in dispute since the opening day of the trial.

 

[Cherwell]

You're right G.bng.

"Anette Stipp, the wife of Dr Johan Stipp who earlier gave evidence in the trial, said she was woken at around 3am by the sound of gunshots.

She said her husband also woke and then went towards their balcony which faced the Pistorius house.

She says she initially told him to come back because they didn't know where the shots had come from.

But then the pair went outside to investigate further.

Mrs Stipp said she heard a woman's "terrified screaming", before what she believed was more gunshots, then nothing more.

She said she could also distinguish a man's voice "crying" in between.

She would not accept suggestions the screams could have been made be a female"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-five-3278891

Whoa people, be careful with the Mirror. Mrs Stipp did NOT say she was "woken by the sound of gunshots". She was already awake, suffering from a cough; she didn't claim to have been woken by any noise.

 

[shane13]

As do I.........but I do feel after the female part of the Stander 'cleaning' duo was questioned on it yesterday, we might yet hear quite a bit more about this.

I am terribly curious. Gerrie is keeping it 'alive' - which means he plans to use it in closing with a few 'suggestions'.

If it was going to play no further part - he wouldn't have questioned old Carise about it I reckon.

Gerrie closing argument/s will be rather interesting.

Huh?
This looks like some Oscar-Speak from you re this matter.
Bottom line is he didn't try to pin her down re 5th phone and leaving the crime scene.
And if I uderstand, he can't call her back.
So why not say this?

 

[lithgow1]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nies-trying-intimidate-reeva-steenkamp-friend

From the link: Police warrant officer Barend van Staden confirmed that he had heard Pistorius say: "How can you sleep at night?" and reported it to the chief prosecutor, Gerrie Nel.

I know one should try and not let a personal impression of Pistorius cloud the view of the trial but he really does seem to be a scuzzbag of the highest order. I have aq hunch many of you will agree as it would seem that a very unpleasant person lurks beneath that smooth veneer.

 

[Cherwell]

Funnily enough, much of the Stander's testimony was met with quite a bit of scorn here in SA.

The various tweets doing the rounds (and many were shown on the Oscar Channel 199 on our DSTV) were less than complimentary.

Most people found their testimony 'basically honest' yet supremely blown up with lots of hot air from the Oscar PR machine's pump.

Because their evidence did nothing to damage the PT's case, and very little to bolster the DT's - most felt it was a PR driven moment in the trial.

Much embellishing, with a huge dollop of tailoring and sympathy for Oscar's cause; nothing more than character witnesses for the DT - yet more than a few points scored for the PT I reckon?

Most in SA felt they were over the top sugary and therefore not as credible as they might have been had they stuck to the facts..............and ignored the 'poor Oscar' angle.

Of course there are the 'believers' who sobbed with the Standers...........(then again these are folk who believe Oscar managed to open and kick doors whilst brandishing a firearm in the dark etc etc etc etc)

I'm also interested in Carice's garbled babbling about "the lady". I feel sure that she did in fact hear a woman screaming, otherwise why would she mention a lady?

 

[lithgow1]

Huh?
This looks like some Oscar-Speak from you re this matter.
Bottom line is he didn't try to pin her down re 5th phone and leaving the crime scene.
And if I uderstand, he can't call her back.
So why not say this?

The lawyers I heard on the SA radio discussion today mentioned the phone as one of the reasons Nel could apply to reopen his case.

 

[thewagesofsin]

The lawyers I heard on the SA radio discussion today mentioned the phone as one of the reasons Nel could apply to reopen his case.

Does the station podcast? I've been looking for a podcast discussion of this trial with little luck so far.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Huh?
This looks like some Oscar-Speak from you re this matter.
Bottom line is he didn't try to pin her down re 5th phone and leaving the crime scene.
And if I uderstand, he can't call her back.
So why not say this?

Would not Nel be able to call her back if, as has been indicated, Nel asks for the case to be reopened?

 

[katydid23]

Does the station podcast? I've been looking for a podcast discussion of this trial with little luck so far.

I think they do.

 

[steveml]

All getting so very complicated. Is everyone sure Stipp heard "help, help, help" both before and after last set of bangs ? I only recall him hearing them once before the last bangs ? Anyone got a link to the parts of his testimony that notes he heard two sets ?

Johan Stipp was awakened by three load bangs that followed each other quickly, ‘almost on top of each other – bang, bang, bang.'
He went onto the balcony and heard what he thought was a woman screaming. He also thought he could hear a man’s voice screaming, quieter than the female screams but wasn't sure so didn’t include that in his written statement.

While on the phone he heard another 3 loud bangs and told his wife to move away from the line of the window.

He then went back out onto the balcony and heard OP shouting 'help, help, help'.

Johan Stipp testified that all six bangs sounded identical.

 

[shane13]

I believe 'sister' Pistorious was called whilst she was in the car, and told to go back and fetch Reeva's handbag.

No-one will convince me otherwise. As to what was in there, it could have been one of many things - including the 'phone' and any other damaging evidence.

Now that's an interesting theory!
Thank you.

Who is on your list that might have called her?

 

[steveml]

I'm a big fan of The Twilight Zone. I keep seeing images of that episode where the wealthy patriarch that was about to die and leave his fortune to someone, presumably his family, made his four "faulted" younger relatives wear a unique mask. Great episode! Here is an image. One of them looks like Aimee and Oscar to me, the upside down frowning lips and facial expressions.

Surely there's no need to mock the family of the accused?

They didn't choose to be in this position for heaven's sake.

 

[Zinn]

Since OP testified there's more evidence imo that he wasn't on stumps when he fired the gun. He slipped and described his stance as a "crouch" ... like http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/ABC_skynews_oscar_pistorius_gun_jt_140301_16x9_992.jpg .. upper body leaning forward, knee/s bent, but gun pointing slightly downward when he fired at Reeva. Hope Nel brings back Mangena to give an opinion about that scenario.

OP also described kneeling at the entrance to the bathroom when he first approached it, fearing there was an intruder. Lisa Salinger mentioned this in her great blog (http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/10/oscar-trial-day-20-oscar/) and pondered whether OP could have been kneeling when he shot at the toilet room door, as well. I do wonder if OP's kneeling height would be similar to his height in a crouched position on stumps.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

 

[thewagesofsin]

I think they do.

Which stations are covering this?

 

[lisasalinger]

This look from yesterday creeped me out!

 

[TipDog]

With all due respect, I'm aware of OP's privileged life and home AND I find it believable that he still felt paranoid...witness his past behavior fearing intruders at his gated home.

Again with all due respect, no, I actually don't accept that a few posters here who live where this case took place necessarily have a better sense of what an entire nation is thinking or believing just because they live there, anymore than I believe my own views on cases represent the US.

I prefer to read/listen and evaluate for myself, and I trust my own research skills, logic, and years now of following trials, posting and participating here.

I can understand if some or many SA's or others anywhere else "struggle" to believe OP's account. I don't believe parts of it either. I just don't view every witness and every piece of evidence through an a priori assumption of guilt and bad character. JMO.

Do you also believe he is hot tempered and capable of being reckless with a gun when angry?...witness his past history of shooting off guns in anger and recklessly when others were around and could have been injured/killed. Do you also believe he is capable of lying to cover any wrong doings, to save his own neck?...witness his behavior on the stand, calling other witnesses' testimony into question with respect to his shooting firearms in situations in which anyone could have been harmed or killed.

This is not a vulnerable man no matter how much he claims to be. Paranoid, yes. Vulnerable, no. Huge difference. He has had a life beyond charmed compared to others with similar disabilities. And he should be held accountable the same as anyone, able bodied or otherwise, when it comes to shooting and killing a defenseless woman behind a locked door.

JMO

 

[JuneBug67]

I'm also interested in Carice's garbled babbling about "the lady". I feel sure that she did in fact hear a woman screaming, otherwise why would she mention a lady?

It was odd. But perhaps that's just some kind of a post-hoc construction knowing that 'a lady' was killed. Or maybe a typical thought pattern for a residential area with a presumably high proportion of family dwellings.

 

[lisasalinger]

Its dicey to assert what a nation thinks or believes about anything. From what I've been reading, South Africans when interviewed almost universally expressed that they understood the fear OP has testified about.

There was a great article back in March about an American journalist who witnessed for himself what he describes as the almost clinical paranoia of SA's middle class about home invasions and breakins, no matter how gated and secure their homes, and no matter the "rape doors" securing their bedrooms, etc.

That generalized paranoia made me see OP's story in a different light, and yep, made it far more believable.

And, personally, I thought the Standers were entirely credible. I bet the judge did too, witness her note-taking during their time on the stand. This case is about state of mind. It is telling how clearly devastated OP was minutes after he killed her.

And its interesting indeed that the neighbors closest to his house did NOT hear a woman screaming.

BBM... Nor did they hear the gunshots.

 

[katydid23]

Which stations are covering this?

http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistorius2.htm

 

[DebinGA]

I'm a big fan of The Twilight Zone. I keep seeing images of that episode where the wealthy patriarch that was about to die and leave his fortune to someone, presumably his family, made his four "faulted" younger relatives wear a unique mask. Great episode! Here is an image. One of them looks like Aimee and Oscar to me, the upside down frowning lips and facial expressions.

OP the dangerous narcissist and his enabling clan remind me of the TZ episode where everybody is scared to death of a six year old boy who has the power to instantly think them out of existence. The terrified remnant of people still alive are constantly telling him, "That's good" as he wreaks havoc.