Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[liesbeth]

As I've said time and time again on here, I think some people would be absolutely astonished by how quickly some abusive/manipulative/pathological liar types can come up with their lies .. I know I always used to be when I knew mine. Add to that, as you say, the intruder one is an extremely obvious one to go for .. it wouldn't exactly need a huge amount of effort for someone of that ilk to dream up.

If the gunshots were at about 03:13 or 03:14 and OP called Stander at 03:19 there would be plenty of time to think.

 

[DebinGA]

I haven't heard any story about a child. If you are talking about Mike Azzie's son, he is a grown man, not a child. .

You're right, Cherwell. The incident with Dexter is described below:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-suicidal-reveals-best-1753776

Dexter was at the house two weeks before Christmas and recalled how he knocked over a fan and Pistorius became panic-stricken.
The athlete immediately grabbed his gun for protection before shouting to check if Dexter was OK.

Two weeks before Christmas was about a month before he killed Reeva. A reasonable man would do a lot of thinking afterward.

 

[vansleuths]

"How do you sleep at night?"

Why would OP make these comments to Kim Myers?

 

[TorisMom003]

It is assumed by all of the testimony that the alarm was on, I am assuming that too. The thing that bothers me is that OP could open the patio door and moments later someone else could open the bathroom window and yet the alarm, though armed, did not go off. I guess OPs system could have his bedroom disarmed while the rest of the house is armed, but it does not make sense for a security conscious person to do that, even if it could be done.

OP testified that with his alarm system, the windows and doors could be opened without the alarm going off. He added more to it as to explain what he meant. I can't, at this moment, find the exact wording however I will do so in a bit. I believe it was when Nel was doing his cross but will make sure to note the exact time during OP's testimony as to when he said this.

 

[aoibhinn]

I've just done a quick 'at a glance' table showing witnesses testimony regarding the scream/talking/crying/help sounds. Feel free to use this for reference or modify as required.

I've erred on the side of caution and included a tick against Estelle Van der Merwe for both Reeva and OP's crying sounds, as she thought it was Reeva but her husband told her it was OP.

That's great, Steve. It really helps to see it visualised.

 

[Viper]

RSBM


As with so much, the only source for using a cricket bat to block the door is Pistorius himself. I suspect this is just another elaboration to explain the presence of the cricket bat in the bedroom.

I had though the "cricket bat against the door" story was an attempt to explain that the damage to his BR doors was not done that night. He wants the court to believe it was there for many days weeks months etc...

 

[BritsKate]

I'm hoping Cape Town Crim will be able to shed some light on this.

In England & Wales, there needs to be specific grounds for appeal; people can't just automatically appeal to have another go at getting the verdict they want, IYSWIM. I don't know what grounds would be required in SA.

RBBM

In some European countries, defendants are allowed an initial appeal on any grounds. It's something that's been argued in the Amanda Knox case with Italy's 'backwards' justice system that allows a defendant more rights than other places on the globe.

It would appear, in my very limited reading, that South Africa is much the same. A person convicted of a crime can appeal against the conviction, the sentence, or both. However, leave to appeal must first be obtained. A judge must deem an appellate case has some chance of success in order to grant leave to appeal. Unlike Italy, a prosecutor cannot appeal if an accused is acquitted, unless done so in error of law, but an attorney-general can appeal over sentencing, assuming the accused is convicted. Again, leave to appeal must be granted first.

AFAIK...assuming someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

[lithgow1]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply JuneBug. With the final comments, what put me in mind to make them was an earlier post of your's where you'd expressed to an 'enquiring mind' the belief that the 'pro' OP posters were more fair minded than those of us who are 'anti' if you like. I responded to that post (disagreeing to an extent obviously) and never got a reply - which is fair enough of course but that was in my mind when I made those latter comments. Yes there is contradictory evidence and we all try to make it fit 'our' version and much of it can do your head in. I've never made a comment on timing of shots, screams, distances of witnesses etc - it's too complicated so I appreciate those that delve into this and thank those posters who report their findings whichever 'version' they support.

One final thing that I'd stand by in relation to all this is that I still believe that those who believe OP's version tend to avoid the more difficult questions or shrug them off. No doubt they would probably disagree but that's how I perceive it. Actually, one more final thing re empathy - I had some for him at the start - hell I even had sympathy for Colonel Gaddafi when he was pleading for his life - but none any more. Coming from a position of believing him guilty I now find his attempts to get out of responsibility for absolutely anything quite disgusting, especially when the main charge is couched in all this talk of wanting to protect Reeva. But that's just me so thanks again.

 

[aoibhinn]

I don't think this is correct. Michelle Burger is woken just after 3am by a woman's terrible screams, yelling for help. She hears a man screaming for help three times. Her husband calls the wrong security at 03:16 (for 58 seconds) to report the screaming. She then hears 4 shots. He hears 4, 5 or 6 gunshots. In other words, they both only hear one set of bangs / shots and both testify this is after the phone call e.g. at 03:17 (if the call time is given correctly). I think they don't hear any bangs at 3am, just screaming. I also think 'just after 3am' could easily be 03:05 or any reasonable time before the call.

Cheers Fossil. I'm going to save this info. When I did the timeline originally, I was trying to make it as clear as possible so it would be easy to read. I put in approximate times when any sound was first heard (as per testimony), gunshots (if heard) and names.

I have my last exam tomorrow (yay!) and then I'll have a look at creating a visual that has all the witness information from the night, displayed in a clear and easy to read manner.

 

[Hope4More]

Just a few points re your post above Hope4More (apologies as I've not figured out the snipping stuff):

OP didn't seem to know how well his alarm system was functioning and if any or no sensors had been moved - someone so nervous would make a point of knowing IMO

Having a broken window and sleeping with balcony doors open does not indicate a paranoid person IMO

It's entirely feasible he could have come up with the intruder theory whilst in a freaked out state of mind because of just having deliberately killed her IMO. I have once been in an extreme situation (much less than this admittedly) where I thought a friend had just been seriously injured or even killed and was a mix of freaking out while at the same time doing practical things. Plus 'I thought it was an intruder' is hardly a novel defence - see Ann Woodward, written about by Truman Capote and Dominick Dunne.

Finally, where do you live and have you got a big screen TV?

If you have time, have a look at that video I just linked re self-defence etc - it's interesting and though we are likely to come away from it with different interpretations at least we'll both know it's South Africa's law regarding this.

Stay away from my large screen TV!!!

Interpretations of state of mind are always gonna cause conflict, because everyone has their own history and beliefs about what is rational or normal or whatnot. I disagree with you about OP's paranoia.That's that.

I'm old enough to have learned that very little in the world is black and white. Lots of gray. Lots of little square pegs that can't be smacked into round holes no matter how much we want them to go there.

As I've said again and again and again. I don't like OP. I think he has a serious anger problem. I think he should never be allowed to own a gun again, no matter what the verdict. I think he is incapable of taking responsibility for himself and his actions. I think he has not told the whole truth about what happened that night.

When I add all that up with the "evidence" I see a man who could very well have flown into a frenzy when he believed he heard an intruder. I believe OP could fire 4 shots in a situation where another would fire none or one. I do not think he is "innocent, " but I think he is not guilty of the premeditated murder of Reeva. Big difference.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I'll try and answer and hopefully someone will correct any errors. Yes, most of them did. I didn't catch it all but one did after checking that she wouldn't be called as a witness and the others did to varying degrees. I guess when it is such a big news story it is hard to avoid. I'd of thought it would be problematic and IIRC the defence seemed to make a big thing about Darren Fresno following the trial so dunno really. Not much of an answer I'm afraid but at least I didn't say anything contentious!

There was an interesting radio discussion about all this in terms of the judge and they were saying that even though she would be avoiding ALL media it is hard to block out completely. They were even saying that's likely why she didn't know about today's election - she's studiously not reading papers, watching TV etc.

I'm sure she would be avoiding the media. However, surely someone needs to make her aware of OP's comment to Gina Myers "How can you sleep at night". Perhaps counsel will speak to her in chambers about this.

 

[Cherwell]

RBBM

In some European countries, defendants are allowed an initial appeal on any grounds. It's something that's been argued in the Amanda Knox case with Italy's 'backwards' justice system that allows a defendant more rights than other places on the globe.

It would appear, in my very limited reading, that South Africa is much the same. A person convicted of a crime can appeal against the conviction, the sentence, or both. However, leave to appeal must first be obtained. A judge must deem an appellate case has some chance of success in order to grant leave to appeal. Unlike Italy, a prosecutor cannot appeal if an accused is acquitted, unless done so in error of law, but an attorney-general can appeal over sentencing, assuming the accused is convicted. Again, leave to appeal must be granted first.

AFAIK...assuming someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.

BIB

There you are then. If that's the case, there's no automatic right to appeal.

 

[jay-jay]

"How do you sleep at night?"

Why would OP make these comments to Kim Myers?

My view is that it was an attempt to make Reeva's friends/family feel guilty for having brought him to book over killing Reeva, and putting him in the position where he might end up in the clinker for a v.v.long time. He probably didn't dare say it to Reeva's mother, so he went for Reeva's best friend/almost sister instead.

 

[Cymbaline]

This picture looks like her back wound.

 

[crasshopper]

Absolutely, but is there any doubt that he'll have a gun at hand whenever he's in a place he can't be seen? A gun is some sort of equalizer that compensates for his "little man" syndrome, and he feels naked and helpless without it .. in my totally unqualified to opine opinion.

It will be interesting to see if or how the DT psychologist addresses this.

 

[DebinGA]

I don't believe he is paranoid though .. he has just been trying to instill that into everyone that he is, in order for his 'fear of intruders' thing to stick.

I think OP is definitely paranoid in the sense of "seeing enemies everywhere". The Brazilian racer who beat him is a cheater. The Stipps are liars. Ditto ST, DF, and the young lady whose leg he injured in anger. He confronted Ms. Myers yesterday because she was one of his many enemies, like MB, Mr. VdB, and the unknown driver he thought was following him, who OP felt compelled to confront.

 

[BritsKate]

BIB

There you are then. If that's the case, there's no automatic right to appeal.

No automatic right, no. But certainly more expansive grounds than systems that favor legal error alone.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Hi curiousjo :seeya: that's a list that I made and I should have made the title clearer. This is better:-

Timings*** of gunshots/bangs & screams that were reported to security on 14th Feb

1:56am - Mrs. van der Merwe (very loud woman's voice over an hour)

3:00am (approx) - Mrs. van der Merwe (gunshots/bangs)
3:00am (shortly after)- Security guard on bike. (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mrs. Burger (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:04am - Dr. Stipp. (gunshots)
3:04am - Mrs. Stipp (gunshots)
3:16am (before) - Mr Nhlengethwa (gunshots)

***Timings are approximate due to differing individual clock times and witnesses sometimes unsure of the precise time that they occurred. I have included a note in brackets to account for this, eg. approx, shortly after, before...

It is useful to see the timings for the first set of bangs/ shots all together because they all tally especially when you knock off the 3/4 minutes that Mrs Stipp's says her clock was fast .

 

[Nausicaa]

bbm - Just trying to clarify, didn't one of the earlier witnesses claim they had also heard a man's voice at that time repeating the woman's call for help and when pressed to speculate under cross she had suggested it may have been in mocking?

Sure Val, but I was trying to keep things very simple for Minor to get his mind round.

 

[Val1]

Barry Bateman tweeted this.

#OscarTrial The sum of Frank Chiziweni’s statement to the police was - I saw nothing. I heard nothing. I know nothing. BB



Frank was outside with security when the Standers arrived. I guess he woke up and went outside for no reason.

JMO

It took Kato K. almost 20 years until gave up what he knew... how long until the laws of SA give Frank the same leeway?

http://www.tmz.com/2012/09/20/kato-kaelin-oj-simpson-killed-his-wife/

During the trial, Kato feigned ignorance ... but now Kato told the NY Post that since he can't be prosecuted for perjury he can now say ... "Yes, he did it."