Trial Discussion Thread #38 - 14.05.13 Day 31

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In the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5),[1] NPD is defined as comprising a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), a constant need for admiration, and a lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by the presence of at least 5 of the following 9 criteria:

Can you recognise any of these signs and symptoms with OP and can you give us some examples from watching him in court?

1. A grandiose sense of self-importance
2. A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions
4. A need for excessive admiration
5. A sense of entitlement
6. Interpersonally exploitive behavior
7. A lack of empathy
8. Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her
9. A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1519417-overview

Even though the State Psychologist has been watching OP each day in court, I do not think that would suffice for him to be able to give OP a diagnosis hence the need for the 30 day evaluation.
 
Just a question.... If the final witness for the defence is to be another psychiatrist discussing flight or fight response....whatever happened to the expert that was to give evidence on crime scene contamination?
 
For someone who didn't have time to think when he was shooting, how come the first bullet hit reeva in the hip, and then the next 3bullets were perfectly aimed at the position of the magazine rack, which he must have heard when she fell against it. He was aiming to shoot and kill. He KNEW those bullets were lethal. It is illogical to believe that he didn't mean to shoot and kill, and it is illogical to believe that he didn't know it was reeva, due to witnesses hearing her bloodcurdling screams before and whilst those bullets were fired.
 
If Oscar isn't sent for assessment upon this morning's ruling, will the Defense's final witness be on the stand today?
 
I think that's what the psychiatrist was there for. She evaluated him and essentially gave an explanation of how his version could be true if you consider his anxiety and vulnerability.

His version cannot be true because 4witness heard her bloodcurdling screams before and whilst the gun was fired four times.
A fifth witness heard an argument lasting over 1 hour before the shots.
You cannot just ignore what these witnesses heard.
Furthermore, the bullets were aimed directly at reeva, where she was standing behind the door, and directly at the magazine rack. Look at the photo of the lazer beams showing the angle of the shots and where they hit. They were intended to hit the victim, and kill her, because that's what hollow point bullets do. He CANNOT say he didn't mean to kill anyone.
 
If Oscar isn't sent for assessment upon this morning's ruling, will the Defense's final witness be on the stand today?

The defence is planning to call another witness to shed light on Oscar Pistorius’s mental state following the dramatic testimony of a psychiatrist.

The defence is opposing the state’s application to have the murder accused mentally examined, saying taking its client for mental observation is not for the benefit of the court but that of the prosecution which merely wants a second opinion.

Defence lawyers say the state’s request for Pistorius to be taken for mental observation is “premature”.

“Apart from the fact that there is no merit in this application, I must point out that we’re calling a further witness and that further witness will talk about the accused’s flight-or-fight condition and his vulnerability,” defence lawyer advocate Barry Roux said.

http://www.thenewage.co.za/mobi/Detail.aspx?NewsID=125458&CatID=1007

Surely the State is entitled to get a second opinion.

I am wondering whether this next witness is going to be Dr Richard Holmes as Vorster said she read his report. Perhaps they worked on this together.

My prediction is that Milady will agree to this 30 day evaluation after the next witness gives his testimony and it has been cross-examined.

Is this next witness to be the last one?
 
I think it would be appropriate for the state to request to reopen their case to address the testimony from the psychiatrist. I do not think it's appropriate to refer him for involuntary hospitalization to confirm a diagnosis of GAD when there is no claim of diminished responsibility due to mental defect. It's particularly inappropriate for the state to make that request.

I think Nel is playing games and using this as a tactical maneuver.

Honestly, what could possibly be gained from a forced hospitalization and monitoring?

- To dismiss GAD or any other mental disorder as a mitigating factor.
- Prevent a possible appeal on the grounds of diminished responsibility.
 
That defense was rejected by OP.

You know exactly what the states case is as it hadn't changed one bit.


The states case is that OP and Reeva had an imaginary fight and he chased her to the bathroom and intentionally shot her through the toilet door while on his stumps. And somehow before he shot her she was screaming and he was also yelling for help and there are three unexplained gunshots that woke up the Stipps 10 minutes before Reeva was actually shot.

And the states case has changed over the course of the trial. At first they claimed premeditation because OP had on his prosthesis and was a couple inches from the door when he shot; and because he never called security or ambulance - but then they had to concede that he was actually on his stumps when he shot and he did call both ambulance and security. And the states witnesses agree the gunshots were before the cricket bat, and the Stipps heard gunshots at 3-ish, but apparently the state is going to argue against their own witnesses.

Makes no sense.
 
The defence is planning to call another witness to shed light on Oscar Pistorius’s mental state following the dramatic testimony of a psychiatrist.

The defence is opposing the state’s application to have the murder accused mentally examined, saying taking its client for mental observation is not for the benefit of the court but that of the prosecution which merely wants a second opinion.

Defence lawyers say the state’s request for Pistorius to be taken for mental observation is “premature”.

“Apart from the fact that there is no merit in this application, I must point out that we’re calling a further witness and that further witness will talk about the accused’s flight-or-fight condition and his vulnerability,” defence lawyer advocate Barry Roux said.

http://www.thenewage.co.za/mobi/Detail.aspx?NewsID=125458&CatID=1007

Surely the State is entitled to get a second opinion.

I am wondering whether this next witness is going to be Dr Richard Holmes as Vorster said she read his report. Perhaps they worked on this together.

My prediction is that Milady will agree to this 30 day evaluation after the next witness gives his testimony and it has been cross-examined.

Is this next witness to be the last one?


I agree that it is premature. That's not to say that if the defense does end up making a claim of diminished responsibility due to a mental defect, at that time the court should proceed with a referral and evaluation.
 
The states case is that OP and Reeva had an imaginary fight and he chased her to the bathroom and intentionally shot her through the toilet door while on his stumps. And somehow before he shot her she was screaming and he was also yelling for help and there are three unexplained gunshots that woke up the Stipps 10 minutes before Reeva was actually shot.

Makes no sense. And the states case has changed over the course of the trial. At first they claimed premeditation because OP had on his prosthesis and was a couple inches from the door when he shot; and because he never called security or ambulance - but then they had to concede that he was actually on his stumps when he shot and he did call both ambulance and security. And the states witnesses agree the gunshots were before the cricket bat, and the Stipps heard gunshots at 3-ish, but apparently the state is going to argue against their own witnesses.

Makes no sense.

I have a feeling that Nel will explain it a little better than you are doing. :wave:
 
In making a diagnosis of NPD, it must be distinguished from the other 3 cluster B personality disorders, which are as follows:
Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD)
Borderline personality disorder (BPD)
Histrionic personality disorder (HPD)

Patients with NPD may also meet criteria for separate axis I diagnoses. Alternatively, patients with only NPD may at times have symptoms that mimic those of axis I disorders.
<respectfully snipped>
Personality Diagnostic Questionnaire&#8211;4 (PDQ-4)
Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory III (MCMI-III)
International Personality Disorder Examination (IPDE)

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1519417-overview
Doing all of this takes time so therefore a 30-day evaluation is necessary IMO.

Thanks for this helpful information Estelle. In SA they may also use the MMPI-2:
The Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI-2) is the most widely used and researched clinical assessment tool used by mental health professionals to assess and diagnose mental illness. The MMPI-2 has been utilized in other fields outside of clinical psychology.
The test is often used in legal cases, including criminal defense and custody disputes. The test has also been used as screening instrument for certain professions, especially high risk jobs...
http://psychology.about.com/od/psychologicaltesting/a/mmpi.htm
 
The states case is that OP and Reeva had an imaginary fight and he chased her to the bathroom and intentionally shot her through the toilet door while on his stumps. And somehow before he shot her she was screaming and he was also yelling for help and there are three unexplained gunshots that woke up the Stipps 10 minutes before Reeva was actually shot.

Makes no sense. And the states case has changed over the course of the trial. At first they claimed premeditation because OP had on his prosthesis and was a couple inches from the door when he shot; and because he never called security or ambulance - but then they had to concede that he was actually on his stumps when he shot and he did call both ambulance and security. And the states witnesses agree the gunshots were before the cricket bat, and the Stipps heard gunshots at 3-ish, but apparently the state is going to argue against their own witnesses.

Makes no sense.

I don't think he chased her to the bathroom.

Those earlier batshots might have been OP hitting the door with the bat, angrily because she locked herself away. She may have been screaming at that point. When she threatened to call the cops or someone else, he may have gotten his gun to put an end to that.

His calls for an ambulance and for security are yet to be proven. We do not yet know if he ever actually asked either to come to help him. And an ambulance did not arrive until 3:42. Didn't seem like a HIGH PRIORITY. Same with his so called call to security. They were at his door and he said things were fine.
 
Let's hope because it's not making sense at the moment

By all accounts, Nel is a master at Closing statements. He has a very high success rate mainly because of his ability to pull all the testimony together at the end. I don't think he will disappoint.
 
http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAGPPHC/2014/169.html

After the testimony of the accused the State applied to re-open its case, which application was not opposed and was granted.

[17] Jacobus Cornelius Coetzee (Coetzee) is a registered Clinical Psychologist who.....(snipped).

[18] He evaluated the accused at the request of the court whilst the accused was under observation at Weskoppies Hospital in Pretoria.

[19] In his psychological interview with the accused, the accused reported to him the voices that scream at him usually at night, and throw him with birds and chickens. The voices tell him to take a cable wire to hang himself and sometimes cut himself with a razor or to fight people.

[20] Coetzee conducted a psychometric test on the accused.

20.1 Under the personality assessment inventory (PAI), which test provides information relevant for clinical diagnosis, treatment planning and screening for psychypathology and covers constructs most relevant to a broad-based assessment of mental disorders, the accused answered the questions in a way to create a distorted profile. His interpretation of the marked elevation on the negative impression scale is that the accused made a deliberate attempt to create an overly negative impression of himself. Coetzee holds the view that this is indicative of an attempt to malinger psychiatric symptoms.

20.2 Under structured inventory of malingered symptomatology (SIMS), which test is a multi-axial, self-administered screening measure for detection of malingering in clinical and forensic settings, the accused scored positive for attempted malingering for all of the scales on psychosis, neurologic impairment, amnestic disorders, low intelligence and affective disorders. Coetzee interprets this as that the accused endorsed a high frequency of symptoms that are highly atypical in patients with genuine psychiatric or cognitive disorders, this may indicate an attempt to malinger these symptoms.

20.3 Under the inventory of legal knowledge (ILK), which is a test designed to assist the forensic examiner in assessing reponse styles of defendants undergoing evaluations of their competency to stand trial and is a measure of a defendant’s approach to inquiries about his legal knowledge, the accused obtained a score of 50, which score falls in the upper end of the normal range. Coetzee interprets this as that the test results support the fact that the accused did not attempt to feign limitations in his ability to understand or participate in the legal process.

[21] Coetzee’s opinion is that the accused does not currently suffer from any clinical psychiatric disorders and that at the time of the incident he did not suffer from any clinical psychiatric disorder. Coetzee’s opinion is that the accused shows antisocial and narcissistic personality traits. Coetzee is also of the opinion that the accused is currently malingering some psychiatric symptoms, specifically those in the psychotic disorder spectrum.

[22] Coetzee’s conclusion is that the accused is capable of understanding the court proceedings and can meaningfully contribute to his own defence, and that at the time of the commission of the offence, the accused was able to distinguish between right and wrong and was able to act in accordance with such understanding.

[23] Dr K Naidu, a State Psychiatrist and Dr PH De Wet, a Psychiatrist appointed by the Court, are both duly registered psychiatrists who compiled a joint report regarding the mental condition of the accused, which was handed in by agreement between the parties.

[24] Their examination consisted of clinical interviews with the accused and observation of his general behaviour in the ward. He was physically examined. A summary of court proceedings was made available to them, a psychosocial report was complied and he was psychologically evaluated.

[25] The two Psychiatrists found no psychiatric diagnosis. The diagnosis they found was malingering. They both noted his previous medical and psychiatric history.

[26] Their opinion is that the accused is capable of understanding court proceedings and is able to contribute meaningfully to his defence.

[27] Their opinion is also that at the time of the alleged offences, the accused did not suffer from a mental disorder or mental defect that affected his ability to distinguish between the rightful or wrongful nature of his deeds. A mental disorder or mental defect did not affect his ability to act in accordance with the said appreciation of the rightful or wrongful nature of his deeds.

[32] The court accepts the opinion of Coetzee, and finds that the accused has anti-social and narcissistic personality traits.

[54] The court also takes into account that the accused has an antisocial personality disorder and a narcissistic personality disorder. The evidence of Coetzee is that these disorders may be genetically transferred, but can also be acquired from the systems under which one grows up or from the society from which one emerges.

The court is inclined to find that the accused’s antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder were nurtured and developed by the family from which he emerges.

In my view, the presence of the accused within the environment of his family constitutes a danger to society, unless and until there are programmes for interventions. As things stand, the accused is a danger to society.

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAGPPHC/2014/169.html
 
I don't think he chased her to the bathroom.



Those earlier batshots might have been OP hitting the door with the bat, angrily because she locked herself away. She may have been screaming at that point. When she threatened to call the cops or someone else, he may have gotten his gun to put an end to that.



His calls for an ambulance and for security are yet to be proven. We do not yet know if he ever actually asked either to come to help him. And an ambulance did not arrive until 3:42. Didn't seem like a HIGH PRIORITY. Same with his so called call to security. They were at his door and he said things were fine.


Like I said, if that's how they explain the gunshots at 3-ish, then they're going to have to argue against their own witnesses. Vermuelen says gunshots were before bat shots and that OP pried the panel out while the bat was still in the door crack from the last hit.

I'm anxious to hear how Nel ties it all together because I don't understand it.
 
Like I said, if that's how they explain the gunshots at 3-ish, then they're going to have to argue against their own witnesses. Vermuelen says gunshots were before bat shots and that OP pried the panel out while the bat was still in the door crack from the last hit.

I'm anxious to hear how Nel ties it all together because I don't understand it.

I don't think they will be arguing against their own witnesses. I think the sounds will all fit together at the end.
 
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