Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[G.bng]

Interesting! I once saw interview with him from when he was in his late teens (on YouTube) in which he says he really loves to draw and he has also said he might be an architect if he wasn't running. Maybe he really does have some talent for drawing.

And talent for design too going by the stylised and format, at least from the little one can see and from my perception as a designer and illustrator.

 

[G.bng]

If they diagnose something more severe, would it affect potential sentencing?

Yes and no. If they diagnosed something more severe he may not be criminally liable and therefore no trial and he would be sent to an institution until not a danger to society. If less severe but it affected fully or partially his perception of wrongful at the time then it could fully or partially affect charge and sentencing. JMHO

 

[Jake18]

Thing is though, it's not like OP is having to try and show he has some kind of condition like being a psychopath or something .. we're only talking about GAD here, and I would think that would be quite easy for him to trick them into believing he does actually have that. OP is an absolute master of manipulation, I can see him getting through this test with flying colours.

But it's not like he "passes" if they also agree he has GAD, most people with GAD - which is relatively common - aren't dangerous to others. Dr Vorster could have introduced ANY psychiatric disorder/diagnoses, IMO, but it was the concomitant concerns raised that the issues were worsening and that he may be "dangerous" with a firearm that necessitated the review. In acute psychiatry the two most important things to ascertain are whether a person is at risk to him/her self or to others. And in forensic psychiatry it's also important to ascertain whether the person has diminished capacity.

With three psychiatrists and a psychologist assessing him I'd be surprised if a diagnosis or two doesn't turn up but what's important is whether he's deemed to have diminished capacity in a legal sense. At this stage I don't think anyone actually thinks this is a problem (hence the DT's "own goal").

My question : if he confesses or voluntarily provides information that harms his defence are the psychological team obliged to pass that information over to the PT? It's not a usual doctor/patient relationship in that he hasn't chosen it and there's likely not an ongoing therapeutic relationship.

 

[Cherwell]

Not unless Frank screams like a woman. Who knows? Maybe all these SA men scream like women when they are upset. It could be a cultural thing. (tongue firmly in cheek).

I meant specifically the shouting for help. I shouldn't have used the word 'scream', sorry for the confusion.

 

[Nausicaa]

andrew harding ‏@BBCAndrewH 42m

Pistorius's uncle Arnold welcomes judge's "thorough" ruling and says it gives family "confidence" in justice system.

Then why on earth did Roux fight it?

Spin, spin, spin. Yesterday it was a joke, today it's wonderful and reassuring news. Everything's going fine for OP. If he keeps on saying it someone out there might believe it...

 

[jay-jay]

That's all very well, but there is no comparison between Pistorius and the likes of Barry George.

Pistorius shot Reeva Steenkamp dead, there is no dispute over that. He was sufficiently mentally capable of proving that he knew when it is lawful and unlawful to shoot. He is not "learning disabled" and I for one believe he knew exactly what he was doing.

Absolutely! .. I'm quite astonished that the leap is now being made to learning difficulties such as Barry George had.

 

[jay-jay]

andrew harding ‏@BBCAndrewH 42m

Pistorius's uncle Arnold welcomes judge's "thorough" ruling and says it gives family "confidence" in justice system.

Then why on earth did Roux fight it?

Yes, and why did OP reportedly say it must be some kind of joke?

 

[Emz73]

Well I expect "AnneMarie" is a happy women today.

 

[BritsKate]

I think Roux is afraid the experts will discover what we already know-- OP IS A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR and a person completely lacking in the most basic empathy for other human beings.

I don't think they care about narcissism or borderline --They are afraid he will be found to be a sociopath or even a psychopath. It will be hard for him to hide his complete contempt for anyone who imposes on his will.

RBBM

Very unlikely, in my opinion. Psychopathy isn't an official diagnosis for clinical psychology though it has been added to the antisocial spectrum in the DSM V. Oscar doesn't meet the diagnostic criteria for antisocial as far as I can determine and, in my opinion and experience, is much more likely to be diagnosed with another cluster B disorder, like NPD or BPD, if not comorbid. (If comorbid, APD could easily factor in - but I don't 'see' it in him as a stand alone disorder.) About 1/3 of those diagnosed with antisocial do, in fact, meet the criteria for psychopathy.

Tests to determine psychopathy are highly specific and usually conducted by forensic practitioners. Such a diagnosis, even if accurate, would unlikely be introduced in court, especially prior to determination, as it could be considered highly prejudicial. Psychopathy, as a diagnosis, is sometimes used for sentencing reports and most often, parole considerations. Any cluster B disorder could be damaging as well, but those are recognised disorders by the DSM - and as such, admissible.

But this is JMO and my only real psych qualification is having loved and lived with someone dx'd with personality disorders (who is one of the 1/3) which led me on a quest to understand them better.

 

[jay-jay]

But it's not like he "passes" if they also agree he has GAD, most people with GAD - which is relatively common - aren't dangerous to others. Dr Vorster could have introduced ANY psychiatric disorder/diagnoses, IMO, but it was the concomitant concerns raised that the issues were worsening and that he may be "dangerous" with a firearm that necessitated the review. In acute psychiatry the two most important things to ascertain are whether a person is at risk to him/her self or to others. And in forensic psychiatry it's also important to ascertain whether the person has diminished capacity.

With three psychiatrists and a psychologist assessing him I'd be surprised if a diagnosis or two doesn't turn up but what's important is whether he's deemed to have diminished capacity in a legal sense. At this stage I don't think anyone actually thinks this is a problem (hence the DT's "own goal").

My question : if he confesses or voluntarily provides information that harms his defence are the psychological team obliged to pass that information over to the PT? It's not a usual doctor/patient relationship in that he hasn't chosen it and there's likely not an ongoing therapeutic relationship.

No, but the point is that it is now being used as his defence .. that he shot Reeva because he had GAD (and therefore perceived her to be an intruder, because of his GAD). That is what this referral/assessment is all about .. it's not to try and determine his overall mental condition, it's to determine whether he did in fact have GAD at the time he shot through that door.

 

[Budgie]

I've just had a Birthday present today from Judge Masipa. Albeit, a gift that was a bit of an Indian giver pressie....Outpatients?
...Still, beggars cannot be choosers and my dinner and the 'show' watching with my family and friends were fab!!!

 

[Carmelita]

Well very interesting Judge Masipa approved the application with a caveat that it would be more appropriate for an evaluation to be done on an outpatient basis, which is what I suggested Nel should have asked for all along.

IMO this is a win for the defense, they did not offer a new defense, but the judge has granted them a new defense dependent upon the findings of the evaluations. It seems as if there will be 3 psychiatrists and possibly 1 or 2 psychologists and that this was all agreed to in chambers before court.

The judge indicated that if Voster’s diagnosis is correct that it bolsters the accused version of that morning and it is something the court will have to take into consideration.


I'm not a trial watcher (have never watched one) other than bits and pieces of the Arias trial but this is certainly very interesting on many levels.

 

[AlexUK]

Well I expect "AnneMarie" is a happy women today.

Who is 'AnneMarie'? My brain cells are dying at an alarming rate due to the stress of following all this!

 

[Fuskier]

The point is that Oscar will be assessed by three psychiatrists and a psychologist....so hopefully the court will receive a definitive diagnosis...if that can be reached on an outpatient basis fair enough. The important issue here is getting additional expert opinions.

Not just additional, but independent psychiatric & psychological opinion.

 

[jay-jay]

Well very interesting Judge Masipa approved the application with a caveat that it would be more appropriate for an evaluation to be done on an outpatient basis, which is what I suggested Nel should have asked for all along.

IMO this is a win for the defense, they did not offer a new defense, but the judge has granted them a new defense dependent upon the findings of the evaluations. It seems as if there will be 3 psychiatrists and possibly 1 or 2 psychologists and that this was all agreed to in chambers before court.

The judge indicated that if Voster’s diagnosis is correct that it bolsters the accused version of that morning and it something the court will have to take into consideration.


I'm not a trial watcher (have never watched one) other than bits and pieces of the Arias trial but this is certainly interesting interesting on many levels.

I agree with you .. and I for one, think that it is a great pity when everything else points to him intentionally having killed Reeva.

 

[BritsKate]

I think it's really important to stress that the defence case may well turn on a dime depending on what, if any, his diagnosis is too.

 

[Val1]

I'm glad you brought it forward into this thread because it's important.

For the most part, it seems that all/most of the legal players and expert witnesses here have known each other and have worked with each other, in some cases many for years.

It's what they do. It's their jobs. They're able to separate business from personal. When this trial is over, they'll work together, again. Heck, if SA trials are regularly televised from now on, we may get to know some of these people better ourselves.

All that being said, if I were a naive defense client and saw my lawyer chatting away happily and yucking it up with the opposing side, I'd really be upset.

Especially if you truly have GAD and think everyone is out to get you.

 

[Viper]

Well, if OP can't have a gun he will draw one for himself!

Is that really OP sketching something? What is that he is drawing? It does not look like a gun to my eyes. At first it appeared to be anatomical, but probably not. What is it?

 

[asanque]

<snip>
IMO this is a win for the defense, they did not offer a new defense, but the judge has granted them a new defense dependent upon the findings of the evaluations. It seems as if there will be 3 psychiatrists and possibly 1 or 2 psychologists and that this was all agreed to in chambers before court.

<snip>

Let me get this right.

The Defence opposed this application and lost.

But a loss is actually a win?

:weaklink:

Edit: OP will not want an independent psychiatric analysis done because he will fail.
Its easy to get a psychiatrist to say whatever you like when you pay them enough.

 

[Carmelita]

Let me get this right.

The Defence opposed this application and lost.

But a loss is actually a win?

:weaklink:

Edit: OP will not want an independent psychiatric analysis done because he will fail.
Its easy to get a psychiatrist to say whatever you like when you pay them enough.

The fact that the judge on her own has introduced mental defect as a possible defense is a huge win for the defense. Like it or not.