Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[Fuskier]

why Judge must commit Oscar for psychiatric assessment - YouTube
why Judge must commit Oscar for psychiatric assessment
Christopher Navavie Greenland Christopher Navavie Greenland
Published on May 14, 2014
Bongani Bingwa and Judge Chris N Greenland discuss why Oscar must be committed for psychiatric assessment.

 

[thewagesofsin]

BBM - yes. But OP is 'special' so he gets to go on holiday, make new relationships (while still grieving for his Baba), and live at Uncle's luxury mansion instead of in :jail: like other 'non-special' murderers.

That's why the "punishing him twice" remark was so puzzling. Why she referring to the trial as punishment? Or was she thinking about the jail time she was going to hit him with unless Roux's last few witness' really blew her skirt up?

Either way, it seemed like an odd remark since except for the fact he could afford bail, the guy would be in jail anyways.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ColonelMustard]

Yea when I first looked I was following you. It resembled a fancy shotgun or rifle. But the trigger was too oddly designed. So I looked again and it almost seemed anatomical, like a knee or elbow, but there were again too many odd things about it to match up with that. It's probably something related to science fiction, an alien weapon or something.

A zombie-stopper.

 

[Magdalyn]

Courtwatcher tweet above said 5 a.m. - 9 p.m. and OP has described his trouble sleeping at night even premurder.

Ahhh. If that is so, methinks he will resent that schedule, very, very much. And will let it be known.

Oscar---> :curses:

And if one was malingering, that would be a fairly taxing schedule of performance.

I wonder how often OP will be asked by a psychiatrist, "How do you sleep at night?"

 

[Really?]

He's got my other black sock I've been looking for everywhere, and he's sniffing it!

Omg......that is so funny

I am way back on page 1 still playing catch up

 

[Magdalyn]

OK, so there are all these "disorders", but couldn't it be possible that he's just a nasty piece of work?

Could be. But many disorders are comorbid.

My money is on narcissism, intermittent explosive disorder, AND nasty piece of work.

 

[BritsKate]

This may just be wishful thinking on my part but I cannot believe Masipa tipped her hand to how she may rule. That could have extraordinarily devastating legal consequences further down the road.

Further, I really don't believe this order was granted to favour either side, but rather as a necessity so the Court itself can gain clarity on the issue, in order to protect the right of the accused to a fair trial and limit appellate grounds.

MOO

 

[vansleuths]

Why would the defence ever oppose OP visiting a state mental facility and why would the PT ever bring forward this motion. Up until now, it seemed like OP would be found guilty of murder but now, there is a real chance of either Culpable Homicide or even not guilty.

Below are the possible outcomes

It could be determined that Pistorius was mentally incapacitated at the time of shooting. This would end the trial immediately and Pistorius would be considered not guilty by reason of mental illness.

It could be determined that Pistorius had "diminished responsibility" at the time of the shooting. In this case, the trial would continue but Pistorius' mental health would be taken into account during his sentencing if he were found guilty.

It could be determined that Pistorius' mental health played no role at all. In this case, the trial would continue and Vorster's testimony would be tossed.

 

[vansleuths]

Anyone notice Roux nodding his head as the judge spoke about diminished responsibility and OP's disability/vulnerability?

 

[Lochlynsmom]

I cannot for the life of me believe this is "good" for the defense. The psychiatrist(Dr V) used only information thought to be helpful by the defense and examined him in a non clinical environment(which I would be think would be similar to being seen as an outpatient) and look at the predicament they are in. He is going to be evaluated by a number of professionals that I refuse to believe are going to find any of the actions he took that night were acceptable or excusable. His own DR would not concede that only that it should be used as mitigating evidence.

And for those that feel this was a win for the defense look at OP's past behavior and performance on the stand...I am afraid that the true nature of OP is going to be unmasked and it is not going to be pretty. IMO

 

[Cherwell]

Ahhh. If that is so, methinks he will resent that schedule, very, very much. And will let it be known.

Oscar---> :curses:

And if one was malingering, that would be a fairly taxing schedule of performance.

I wonder how often OP will be asked by a psychiatrist, "How do you sleep at night?"

:laugh:
Class!

 

[G.bng]

I don't see how his bail being revoked (the Dr said he was dangerous) and him being put into custody for the rest of the trial undermines 'justice'. It would seem to be the usual course of events. I understand you would not have liked my comment avout him being dragged off screaming but it had nothing to do with justice being served - just a personal wish for less kid gloves treatment.

If I thought he had a genuine mental disorder that influenced him at the time of the offence or one which had developed over the past year then I too would not want to see him 'dragged off' but I don't think he has or had so he should be treated the same as any other accused. Did you read the article that was posted here regarding the other double amputee languishing in jail awaiting trial? The black guy with no rich family behind him? Now to me, that's injustice when his situation is compared to Pistorius'.

I am not convinced it is the "usual course of events" and it has not been the case here as bail has not been revoked albeit that's not to say it won't be on Tuesday.

Sorry I took you more seriously than a rant. I get touchy when a person's capacity and/or vulnerability is a question, and both Nel and Masipa must think there is a minimum chance or there would be no tests, not least because I am a voluntary advocate for people with no or diminished capacity. And I am not saying this is OP's case, nor yours either, but I have seen so much hate and injustice dealt them because of a lack of understanding or sympathy it upsets me. Sorry.

 

[Hope4More]

This may just be wishful thinking on my part but I cannot believe Masipa tipped her hand to how she may rule. That could have extraordinarily devastating legal consequences further down the road.

Further, I really don't believe this order was granted to favour either side, but rather as a necessity so the Court itself can gain clarity on the issue, in order to protect the right of the accused to a fair trial and limit appellate grounds.

MOO

Yep. It's called being a fair, impartial, and competent judge. Kudos to her for doing the right and proper thing to protect the integrity of the trial.

 

[Ncl1968]

Watching sky news last night and it shows Nel asking Dr v. If op gave her a version of events from that evening and she said yes he told me he fired at the noise from the bathroom.. Nel said that is a different version that he gave the court..
She tried to explain the difference by saying its his mental condition Nel said or he could be lying... She said yes it's a possibility ...
So not only another version but op own witness saying he could have lied

 

[44ALLAN]

Anyone notice Roux nodding his head as the judge spoke about diminished responsibility and OP's disability/vulnerability?

Well I hinted at it before and I'll hint again
I think Roux has pulled a masterstroke here I really do.............this was all planned when they realised their case was lost.

Desperate times call for desperate measures and OP is now going to try for 'crazy' so it wasn't his fault.

Hope I'm wrong.

 

[Cherwell]

This may just be wishful thinking on my part but I cannot believe Masipa tipped her hand to how she may rule. That could have extraordinarily devastating legal consequences further down the road.

Further, I really don't believe this order was granted to favour either side, but rather as a necessity so the Court itself can gain clarity on the issue, in order to protect the right of the accused to a fair trial and limit appellate grounds.

MOO

"Devastating legal consequences", why? She made a passing reference to punishment. She might even have meant it metaphorically. Some may think that he is already suffering for the consequences of his actions.

 

[Hope4More]

I cannot for the life of me believe this is "good" for the defense. The psychiatrist(Dr V) used only information thought to be helpful by the defense and examined him in a non clinical environment(which I would be think would be similar to being seen as an outpatient) and look at the predicament they are in. He is going to be evaluated by a number of professionals that I refuse to believe are going to find any of the actions he took that night were acceptable or excusable. His own DR would not concede that only that it should be used as mitigating evidence.

And for those that feel this was a win for the defense look at OP's past behavior and performance on the stand...I am afraid that the true nature of OP is going to be unmasked and it is not going to be pretty. IMO

Its not the job of mental health professionals to judge his actions that night at all, much less to determine if they were "excusable."

 

[Hope4More]

Proof please.

Prove that judges or this judge don't make a decision until the case is over? Really?

 

[BritsKate]

Why would the defence ever oppose OP visiting a state mental facility and why would the PT ever bring forward this motion. Up until now, it seemed like OP would be found guilty of murder but now, there is a real chance of either Culpable Homicide or even not guilty.

Below are the possible outcomes

It could be determined that Pistorius was mentally incapacitated at the time of shooting. This would end the trial immediately and Pistorius would be considered not guilty by reason of mental illness.

It could be determined that Pistorius had "diminished responsibility" at the time of the shooting. In this case, the trial would continue but Pistorius' mental health would be taken into account during his sentencing if he were found guilty.

It could be determined that Pistorius' mental health played no role at all. In this case, the trial would continue and Vorster's testimony would be tossed.

RBBM

No, there really isn't. In fact, a murder conviction may be even more likely depending on the outcome of the evaluation. Oscar's entire defence rests solely on his state of mind at the time of Reeva's killing. His testimony alone was horrible and therefore insufficient to prove he was in fear for his life. So the defence sought to bolster his testimony and we are where we are.

The prosecution was forced to bring it up - and if they hadn't - Masipa herself may have. Doing anything else may have reversed a conviction in the future.

As to your possible outcomes:

1. If it is established his 'illness' was such that he couldn't differentiate between right and wrong, it does NOT equal a not guilty ruling. What will happen is a mistrial will be declared, the State can refile charges, and Oscar will be tried again. If he's found to be incompetent to stand trial he will be committed and receive compulsory treatment until such time as he is fit to proceed. Then, and only then, guilt or innocence would be determined on a not guilty by mental disease or defect (involuntary) defence in a new trial.

2. You're right but how much so is largely up to what the diagnosis, and how it affects him, actually is.

3. Obviously the best outcome if you believe Oscar is guilty of murder. But by the same token it's wholly possible a less mitigable disorder could be established as well which could also work to the State's favour.

JMO

 

[Viper]

Yes, and the strain of trying to hide that fact 24/7 must be enormously stressful, i.e. anxiety heightening.

Don't you think that it is possible that he has developed GAD? Basically it is simple anxiety, but it includes worrying about three or more things 4-5 days of the week for 6 months or more, IIRC, something along those lines.

Here are some things that OP is likely worrying about:

1. Getting convicted.
2. Going to prison for the rest of his life.
3. Being able to continue to pay his enormous legal bills.
4. Having his bail revoked.
5. Has his defense trumped the State's case against him?
6. Wondering what other evil things Mr. Nel will be doing to him and his defense case.
7. Never again driving a McClaren automobile, drinking with his mates, dressing in designer clothes, eating his exact foods, iPadding , dating beautiful young women, etc...
8. Not being able to return to his life of fame and fortune ever again.

Frankly I would be shocked if Osca' did not have GAD! LOL!!! But just because he does now and it is getting worse, that is not going to get him anything less when it comes to his prison sentence.