Trial Discussion Thread #40

[Carmelita]

Re Tasha's, OP's testimony contradicted two other witnesses - Darren Fresco and Kevin Lerena about what happened there. Both testified that 1) Fresco had warned OP that the gun was loaded and "one-up" and 2) OP had begged Fresco to take the blame. If one thing's for sure, it's that OP will be found guilty on that gun charge.

The Tasha’s incident and Oscar’s refusal to admit that he pulled the trigger under oath is bizarre in its scope. This to me was one of the first signs that there is something more going on with Oscar’s cognition rather than him simply trying to manipulate the court. He is an emotionally unstable man, he exhibits maladaptive qualities, what all that means as to a mental health defect, will hopefully be somewhat clarified by the independent mental health professionals who are to evaluate him.

 

[Nausicaa]

The Tasha’s incident and Oscar’s refusal to admit that he pulled the trigger under oath is bizarre in its scope. This to me was one of the first signs that there is something more going on with Oscar’s cognition rather than him simply trying to manipulate the court. He is an emotionally unstable man, he exhibits maladaptive qualities, what all that means as to a mental health defect, will hopefully be somewhat clarified by the independent mental health professionals who are to evaluate him.

I think the most important thing the court will want to learn from the psycho report is this: does Pistorius have a mental health defect that makes him liable to kill people - yes or no?

 

[Viper]

But what is alarming about the photo?

IMO, which means you do not need to reply to this message. But since you obviously want someone's opinion, OP should have discreetly passed them a note with his thoughts, or a note requesting that he needed to speak with them. That he is stretching and leaning as far as he can looks desperate, and unfortunately it brings visions of him doing that through the broken WC door to do whatever he did before he actually opened the door. And the look on the blonde woman's face is also disturbing; Reeva was blonde and had similar features.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Should be running but had to post this link as well, way back from 2011 (just for interest and previous form in terms of being a jerk)

http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Oscar-Pistorius-Hero-or-Hooligan-20111103

His attitude to women is highlighted rather unattractively in this post.


In another comment, shortly after the Feb 14 shooting, a user on a news site commented the following: " clint0290 • a year ago

I have quite literally bumped into Oscar Pistorius at an atheletics event in 2008 and he seems like a real jerk. He was shouting something at one of his pals while walking past my table and he walked into me sitting on my chair. He then proceeded to tell me I should "sit properly" at a table, and then walked off swearing and ranting. The man is a hot-headed arrogant little twot! The wheel turns - I have no doubt that he shot Reeva in cold blood and I hope he gets sent to jail for a very long time and someone there shoves those blades up his back side!"

I'm sure one could find many more examples of he just 'rubbed folk' up incorrectly. NO, this does not mean he is guilt of murder, but it certainly shine a light on what a fake hero the man was....................

 

[Carmelita]

Thanks for the snipping info Carmelita. I don't quite get it but I'll have a go next time.

Basically I think you are confusing 'hate' which is a very strong emotion with 'dislike and distrust'. Yes many here, myself included, have come to dislike this man. I know that in a way it's unusual to dislike someone you've not met but we nearly all do this in all aspects of life - politicians, celebrities, movie stars, murderers. We form opinions on people with high public profiles and now many opinions have been formed on this particular person. I came into this trial with no opinion whatsoever on Oscar Pistorius so would argue that my now low opinion of him as been formed purely through witnessing his actions and listening to his words.

Re what I said about him using her family as pawns you are correct - I did essentially say that and I stick by it. Do you think what he did was appropriate at the time and under the circumstances? To apologise at the start of his murder trial to the victim's mother when her only options were to sit and listen or get up and walk out? I don't.

Re the photo yes it's not particularly alarming though the blond girl looks a little wide-eyed. So you probably have a point there though I imagine the use of 'alarming' was probably a bit tongue in cheek and in any case the original poster can repsond to you if they wish. I'll just leave with two thoughts - do you think 'liking' or admiring someone you've never met is just as capable of clouding objectivity? And the other - I for one would not like you to think of yourself as a pariah here - I don't think of you in those terms. I just think of you as a polite person with two nice dogs whose opinion on OP is very far removed from my own and seemingly always will be. If the opportunity arises I'll continue to make jokes at OP's expense. If you judge that as coming from a position of hating him then you will be wrong but if you think the joke is not in the least bit funny you may very well be spot on.

I have to log off but I just want to say I don't think it is particularly unusual to hate someone that you have not met.


I watched maybe a total of 5 hours of the Jodi Arias trial. I can safely say I hate Jodi Arias, I hate what she did to Travis, to his memory, to his family, I hate the way she seemed to find herself so coy, I could go on. Am I objective about her, no, she is human filth in my mind.

I don't know what Oscar's motivation was in addressing Reevas family. I think if he did not address them in some way, Nel would have said that Oscar has never expressed any remorse to the Steemkamps, so I think Oscar was damned either way.

Would it have been more appropriate for Oscar to have written a private letter expressing his remorse and have his DT give it to the PT, sure definitely.

Have a good day and thank you for the civil discourse and allowing me to clarify myself rather than speaking for me

 

[Really?]

Very extreme. But is has been done. I just can't think of the case.

I'm quite happy with the outpatient ruling. I feel folk are far more pathetic and 'anxious' when institutionalized than what they are when they 'feel' they are in control.

OP would be certain he was in control and 'special' because he would only be visiting Weskoppies from 5am until 9pm daily, not staying there.

Him thinking he is in control is far more beneficial for an accurate diagnosis. IMHO.

His sitting sniveling in a padded cell; sleeping on a mattress on the floor, whilst listening to sociopaths taunt him would make a diagnosis of GAD very easy........... Not as easy if he doesn't have that 'fear' of sleeping there, and losing control. He believes this is going to be a 'diddle' for a manipulator such as he..... :facepalm: because he is 'special' and in control. I say, "the computer says no"

I do hope he gets to do some art and music therapy though. :drumroll:

Haha Cape. ... Another excellent post

Love the " computer says no...." It's from a British sitcom. I use it often at home lol

 

[lithgow1]

Haha Cape. ... Another excellent post

Love the " computer says no...." It's from a British sitcom. I use it often at home lol

Remember the episode when the computer finally said 'yes' and she was all rattled by it?

To get back OT I read that anecdote CTC posted about the woman at the concert not long after he was arrested and that is probably when I started to think 'hmmm maybe not so golden after all' as the story had that ring of truth about it. I'll be quick to point out though that I was still waiting to hear his version before rushing to judgement.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I so wish I could be reading here and joining in but my son is getting married tomorrow. I worked like a woman possessed today catching up on 3 weeks' housework and did some ironing too so I'm feeling like little miss goody two shoes right now. I haven't had a life since this trial started on 3 March so maybe a break will interrupt my obsession. I can't wait for the next exciting episode next week. There always seem to be more twists and turns and it just goes on and on. :seeya:

 

[CriLondon]

Somebody yesterday in thread 39 hinted at OP's facial expressions the moment Judge Masipa was explaining what the State had put forward as the reason for the DT to call Dr.V as witness , explaining the State believed it was a move to cover for OP bad testimony during cross-exam. The poster (sorry I can't find it in that thread at the moment) thought that the look on OP's face was anger (or alluded as such i can't recall the exact wording used by the poster) towards the Judge.
What I do see there ( it is my opinion not fact as i have studied micro-expressions as a personal interest the last 4 years) is a look of questioning with a raised left eyebrow and not much else.
It is important to say that the only video i found is on YT and it's the live feed , the image quality isn't great , OP is a bit too far to analyze accurately and mostly only one side of his face is in view (the latter is the most important as the only activity noted is on the left side of his face and that's hidden from the camera angle)

I'll go a bit further (and this is purely my interpretation and there are other angles , i just think this fits best with a lot of other things noted about his personality) and say that the questioning look on his face indicatd by the left eyebrow movement could be seen as OP possible narcissistic traits reacting to somebody's doubts about the integrity of his testimony. In essence how could someone think of me as bad?

Please go easy on me , i just offered what i thought and i welcome others' ideas about it !

 

[Murphys_Law]

There seems to be no evidence that she made or attempted to make a call, but there is no proof that she had the phone with her in the toilet.

As with almost everything, we only have Pistorius's word for it.

There has been a hint that it was submersed in some form of liquid ... OP says he retrieved it from the toilette bowl. Nel, while leading Von Rensburg through the scene as he saw it, made special note of the fish pond near the front door. Nel did not mention the phone at the time, so this is speculation on my part.

The phone, which was found in two separate pieces, is severely scratched ...not what you would expect from being dropped on a smooth tile floor...more like a skid across cement or something with an uneven surface. I say this because I have the iphone1 and it has been dropped numerous times on cement (from less than 1 metre high) and it bears similar scratches though not as many nor as deep as those seen on RS's phone.

 

[vansleuths]

Very extreme. But is has been done. I just can't think of the case.

I'm quite happy with the outpatient ruling. I feel folk are far more pathetic and 'anxious' when institutionalized than what they are when they 'feel' they are in control.

OP would be certain he was in control and 'special' because he would only be visiting Weskoppies from 5am until 9pm daily, not staying there.

Him thinking he is in control is far more beneficial for an accurate diagnosis. IMHO.

His sitting sniveling in a padded cell; sleeping on a mattress on the floor, whilst listening to sociopaths taunt him would make a diagnosis of GAD very easy........... Not as easy if he doesn't have that 'fear' of sleeping there, and losing control. He believes this is going to be a 'diddle' for a manipulator such as he..... :facepalm: because he is 'special' and in control. I say, "the computer says no"

I do hope he gets to do some art and music therapy though. :drumroll:

Is that confirmed, would that be his hours and is it Mon-Sun or Mon-Fri?

 

[CriLondon]

There has been a hint that it was submersed in some form of liquid ... OP says he retrieved it from the toilette bowl. Nel, while leading Von Rensburg through the scene as he saw it, made special note of the fish pond near the front door. Nel did not mention the phone at the time, so this is speculation on my part.

The phone, which was found in two separate pieces, is severely scratched ...not what you would expect from being dropped on a smooth tile floor...more like a skid across cement or something with an uneven surface. I say this because I have the iphone1 and it has been dropped numerous times on cement (from less than 1 metre high) and it bears similar scratches though not as many nor as deep as those seen on RS's phone.

My original post was intended as a "why would OP handle Reeva's phone to start with?"
Especially if , he says first he recovers it from the toilet bowl , and then under cross-exam he said he tried to use it to make an emergency call IIRC.
I dropped a mobile once in the toilet and it never worked well afterwards....

 

[Zuri]

"Oscar's Dark Side": http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-dark-side-1.1471252#.U3TO_ChWkdU

Article right after Reeva's murder re some of OP's prior bad acts that his pr machine had managed to bury. I hope we'll hear from Cassidy Taylor-Memmory about OP's brief arrest for causing her leg injury in an angry, door-slamming incident in 2009 and his finally paying her court costs right before trial. And also the witnesses to his 2009 boat accident who contacted the press after he lied about the incident in court.

If everything in this article is true, this is an even more disturbing picture of OP. These incidents may just be the tip of the iceberg. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior and this does not bode well for OP. Will he finally be held accountable?

 

[Hope4More]

"Oscar's Dark Side": http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-dark-side-1.1471252#.U3TO_ChWkdU

Article right after Reeva's murder re some of OP's prior bad acts that his pr machine had managed to bury. I hope we'll hear from Cassidy Taylor-Memmory about OP's brief arrest for causing her leg injury in an angry, door-slamming incident in 2009 and his finally paying her court costs right before trial. And also the witnesses to his 2009 boat accident who contacted the press after he lied about the incident in court.

Thanks for the link. I've read of all those incidents before....don't see the mentioned escalation of OP's behavior leading up to Reeva's death.

I also don't see any pattern of violent behavior towards women. The door slamming incident is a great example of how angry OP gets, that he screams when he gets angry, and that he can be incredibly unpleasant.

But, IMO, looking at this case, it matters that the door slamming was not directed at Memmory. He didn't try to hurt her, he was just so enraged he was oblivious to her being there. Hmm.

No other incidents of violence towards women or actual violence against anyone are mentioned. He threatened violence once....but didn't act on it. He demonstrated recklessness multiple times. How that would play out if brought up is pure speculation .....would imagine psych experts could spin that both ways.

What I did read there is one more example of OP hearing a noise - the washing machine and instantly reaching for his gun. THAT track record IMO is firmly established, on point, and most relevant.

 

[Karmady]

Is that confirmed, would that be his hours and is it Mon-Sun or Mon-Fri?

It won't be confirmed until Tues when the order is entered, soonest

jmo

 

[TessaG]

Hi, Cape Town Crim. New poster here - don't think we've met. :seeya:
Just watched Dr Vorster's entrance and Mr Roux's obvious reaction. (Very impressed by Roxanne Adams response. She obviously wasn't taking the rap for this one. Good on her!
Thing is, when would Roux have had the opportunity to have any kind of useful "chat" with her in front of the whole court? He made no move to leave court to intercept her himself, yet was obviously, as you pointed out, very unhappy with the situation.
Apologies if anyone else has asked this in the meantime, I'm only on page 2 of this thread and wasn't sure I'd have time to catch up before the convo had moved on.

 

[Estelle]

There has been a hint that it was submersed in some form of liquid ... OP says he retrieved it from the toilette bowl. Nel, while leading Von Rensburg through the scene as he saw it, made special note of the fish pond near the front door. Nel did not mention the phone at the time, so this is speculation on my part.

The phone, which was found in two separate pieces, is severely scratched ...not what you would expect from being dropped on a smooth tile floor...more like a skid across cement or something with an uneven surface. I say this because I have the iphone1 and it has been dropped numerous times on cement (from less than 1 metre high) and it bears similar scratches though not as many nor as deep as those seen on RS's phone.

So was Nel possibly thinking that OP threw Reeva's phone into the fish pond near the front door so it would not work any more to phone for help and he/she later took it up to the bathroom? They possibly had a struggle downstairs with that phone.

 

[Hope4More]

Should be running but had to post this link as well, way back from 2011 (just for interest and previous form in terms of being a jerk)

http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Oscar-Pistorius-Hero-or-Hooligan-20111103

His attitude to women is highlighted rather unattractively in this post.


In another comment, shortly after the Feb 14 shooting, a user on a news site commented the following: " clint0290 • a year ago

I have quite literally bumped into Oscar Pistorius at an atheletics event in 2008 and he seems like a real jerk. He was shouting something at one of his pals while walking past my table and he walked into me sitting on my chair. He then proceeded to tell me I should "sit properly" at a table, and then walked off swearing and ranting. The man is a hot-headed arrogant little twot! The wheel turns - I have no doubt that he shot Reeva in cold blood and I hope he gets sent to jail for a very long time and someone there shoves those blades up his back side!"

I'm sure one could find many more examples of he just 'rubbed folk' up incorrectly. NO, this does not mean he is guilt of murder, but it certainly shine a light on what a fake hero the man was....................

He's a jerk. Got it. I think that lady got understandably upset by a foul mouthed drunk OP, but methinks she exaggerated when accusing him if deliberately shoving her. By her own account he was stumbling drunk...

Jerk and shouty and rude and sexist...that actually describes a large contingent of successful male athletes here in the USA, and elsewhere. Throw in the sense of entitlement, anger issues and whatever else and find a person to avoid...but a gigantic leap to equate that with a murderer. JMO

 

[Karmady]

My original post was intended as a "why would OP handle Reeva's phone to start with?"
Especially if , he says first he recovers it from the toilet bowl , and then under cross-exam he said he tried to use it to make an emergency call IIRC.
I dropped a mobile once in the toilet and it never worked well afterwards....

That's always been one of those little bits of information that makes me lean toward guilt. Why would he look at her phone with sufficient attention to know that it is locked under the circumstances. One reason would be to see if she had called or texted someone -- either because he thought she might have called/texted someone about what was going on or out of a jealous desire to know what she was doing with her phone in the toilet in the middle of the night. Another reason could be out of a non-jealous desire to explain why she was with her phone in the toilet leading to him mistaking her for an intruder.

I think the former explanation(s) are much more likely. jmo

 

[pandax81]

Thank you for this post Pandax81. Very informative. Appreciated. "A statement made by an accused at the relevant enquiry shall not be admissible in evidence against the accused at criminal proceedings..." This was an interesting piece of information IMO. So hypothetically, if Oscar makes a statement of admission during the enquiry, it cannot be used as evidence against him in criminal proceedings?

You're most welcome Fuskier.

My understanding of your point is different based on the bit of the section that immediately follows your quote: "..except to the extent to which it may be relevant to the determination of the mental condition of the accused, in which event such statement shall be admissible".

So anything which is relevant to the psychiatric evaluation (and this is a very wide net) can be included in the report and is admissible as evidence. A confession to murder would be directly relevant to the evaluation of his mental state during that incident and IMO would be most definitely admissible.