Trial Discussion Thread #40

[DILLIGAF]

BBM - except that the 'wood' moving noise which led him to believe the 'intruder' was about to come out of the toilet and attack him was never brought up until his testimony. In his affidavit, the noise in the toilet was just an unidentified noise. There was no suggestion at all that he thought the intruder was advancing towards him, so when he suddenly added (while on the stand) that the 'wood' noise made him think someone was about to come out and attack him, it felt like he was blatantly tailoring his evidence to make it seem as if he was in imminent danger, and had no option but to shoot.


Nothing at all about him believing anyone was about to come out of the toilet. Just that he thought he and Reeva would be in grave danger 'when' they did.

Spot on soozie. :tyou:And Nel called him on that, saying OP was tailoring his evidence. :liar:Blind Freddie could see what OP was trying to do imho.

 

[Hatfield]

M'lady said they should try and get him in outpatient ----as the inquiry was not to punish the defendant bla bvla bla.

Thank you.

See this is what bothers me. How in the world can they do an outpatient assessment of someone. Dont they need to observe him in a closed setting and peek in on him at verious times of the day.

I cant see how he can just show up once a day or once a week for an hour and they are supposed to be able to assess him.

I am not sure if there even is such a thing as a valid 30 day assessment if he is not admitted as inpatient.

This sounds crazy to me.

Does anyone know when he has to show up yet for his assessment or is it even official yet that he is going for one?

 

[nastasya]

Yes. And I'm still waiting. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty, remember?

Actually, that's not true.

He's confessed to killing the victim. It's called a prima facie case.

OP now has burden of proof to show the killing was not a violation of SA criminal code.

He's failing miserably so far. His most recent witness just completed testimony explaining in her opinion why he committed murder. Unfortunately for OP, that part was meant for the sentencing phase.

His own witness threw him so far under the bus he will never get out. She even affirmed OP's own claim that it's HIS personality that made him the aggressor.

The entire PT case was unnecessary. OP and his start psych witness just explained it's his personality that made him pick up a gun and chase after the victim.

Now he will be examined by more psych professionals who are sure to reach similar conclusions to explain how OP's personality caused him to commit murder.

 

[CriLondon]

Thank you.
...

Does anyone know when he has to show up yet for his assessment or is it even official yet that he is going for one?

Snipped by me for relevance

My understanding is that the terms are being agreed between DT & PT and it will be declared next tuesday.

 

[Trooper]

He's guilty of killing her. He's not been found guilty of murdering her; he is innocent of murder until proven otherwise.

The State of the Republic of South Africa believes he is a murderer, which is why they have instigated proceedings against him on that very charge.

The Republic of South Africa has appointed Nel to prosecute Oscar on the strong and provable belief that he committed murder.

The SAPS have investigated this occurrence on the belief that Oscar committed murder.


The only people who are obliged to believe Oscar is innocent , at the beginning of a trial is a jury, and even they are expected to weigh up the evidence presented and form a view, as the evidence is presented and the trial proceeds. Of course, the accused attorneys are expected to hold this belief at least in law for the duration of the trial. They are not obliged to forever believe it , either before or after the trial.

There is no jury in this trial. People often use this throwaway phrase of 'innocent until proven guilty'. and always forget the last part of the cliché.. 'in a court of law'.. it isn't applicable anywhere else,.. innocent is not a perpetual state that a criminal can rest in, forever claiming this position. It is, by law, only applicable until a trial begins. Its why trials are held, on the basis that innocence or guilt must be proven. Once a trial begins, and evidence presented it is necessary to form an ongoing view. 'Innocence ' is not the ground an accused person can cling to forever. It isn't meant to be. It is meant to be a starting point that is either confirmed or disproved.

 

[Really?]

I just came across this rather alarming photo

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...hotos-from-the-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial#8

Wth?...I hear a David Byrne song here

 

[nastasya]

I hardly think an intruder upon hearing a 9mm fired a spit away would continue up the ladder and in a window toward the shots. I also hardly think a man in such an extreme situation as Oscar describes himself as perceiving to be in, would have the presence of mind to think after shooting 4 bullets into the toilet that he should now focus his attention on the window. But then again the mystery of stopping at 4 bullets could be solved as Oscar may have been subconsciously saving bullets for any further intruders. But that is just farcical speculating on my part.

hahahaha... of course he had the presence of mind to bash in the left side of the bedroom door on the way back up the stairs, anticipating how that would make it easier to carry Reeva downstairs even though the right side of the door was already open.

And he had the presence of mind to yell out the window for help, but then turn off the alarm when he opened the door to make sure no help would come.

He even had the presence of mind to KNOW that Reeva didn't get up to get anything to eat during the night even though he was sleeping! That's serious presence of mind to know what somebody is doing while you're sleeping.

And he had the presence of mind to know she didn't scream after the first shot even though that first shot deafened him.

And of course he had the presence of mind to stick his fingers down her throat even though she had been shot through the brain 20 minutes earlier according to his story.

And talk about presence of mind? He had the presence of mind to get garbage bags, duct tape, and rope to "stop the bleeding" 20 minutes after he killed her.

 

[Really?]

Love your posts CTC. Thankyou.

Re the bold bit.
Oscar's unwillingness to admit to any of the charges in and of itself tells us that there is seriously something wrong with the man.

How he can plead not guilty to the charge related to firing the Glock is simply stunning to me. The evidence is irrefutable. He admits to having the gun in his hand but expects the judge to believe it miraculously went off by itself!! :facepalm:
Does he think the judge is a moron? Only the most rabid Pistorian would believe his testimony on that charge surely.

LOL ..... Good stuff ..... Love the " rabid Pistorian...."

 

[Jake18]

I could be wrong but this is how I see it:

Regardless of whether his version is true or not, and whether the judge believes him or not, any diagnosed disorder would show some sort of diminished responsibility (or whatever the phrase is) and would possibly get him out of jail sooner or not even at all (hopefully he will serve jail time!!!!).

In order to be shown not to be "criminally responsible" (the judge used this term and I like it) OP needs to be shown to be so unwell with his mental illness that he can't distinguish right from wrong. The bar for this is set very high and neither Dr Vorster nor the PT thought this was an issue. However, Nel got Dr Vorster to say that OP's GAD, could, at the court's discretion, be potentially be used - as a sort of sympathy ploy -to reduce his sentence. This is sort of like having your cake and eating it too and Nel is having none of it. Either OP is criminally responsible or he isn't and the assessment process will hopefully make it very clear that he is not so mentally unwell that diminished responsibility is an issue.

Untreated schizophrenia is a good example of a mental illness where paranoid delusions could and do diminish capacity, however a personality disorder or even GAD (Estelle's case from 1992 notwithstanding) should not be enough to impair OP's differentiation of right from wrong and thus won't effect his sentence.

Whether this assessment is a boon for the PT depends on whether you believe OP has potentially nasty personality traits that may come out during the intensive assessment process - many people he believe he has narcissistic tendencies which could, potentially, offset the DT's picture of him as a vulnerable, broken man. Plus, any evasiveness etc will also be duly noted.

 

[Carmelita]

Hi all,

I am still a bit perplexed about this whole psych testing thing.

Reason being, I am convinced that Oscar intended to shoot Reeva. That his whole story is a lie. And that he is lying about the "intruder." I am firmly convinced of this based on so many inconsistencies throughout his story.

Therefore, what use is it to try to figure out his general state of mind? He killed Reeva with intent. Does it matter why? Does it matter if he is aggressive? Does it matter if he is easily angered? Is that going to make his responsibility for the crime any less? And if so, why should it? Does any of this matter?

Fact is he killed Reeva with intent, and I don't really care what was in his mind which made him do it.

JMO.

This answer is simple, SA puts the law above whim, Thank God for that.

 

[Really?]

~rsbm~

I'm unsure about OP having PTSD, but I'm pretty sure Roux has DSTP -Damn Sorry (he ever met) Tosser Pistorius.

O.M.G.....lol..... lol

 

[Carmelita]

Thanks Carmelita, that's my understanding too.

:loveyou:

 

[DILLIGAF]

Hi all,

I am still a bit perplexed about this whole psych testing thing.

Reason being, I am convinced that Oscar intended to shoot Reeva. That his whole story is a lie. And that he is lying about the "intruder." I am firmly convinced of this based on so many inconsistencies throughout his story.

Therefore, what use is it to try to figure out his general state of mind? He killed Reeva with intent. Does it matter why? Does it matter if he is aggressive? Does it matter if he is easily angered? Is that going to make his responsibility for the crime any less? And if so, why should it? Does any of this matter?
Fact is he killed Reeva with intent, and I don't really care what was in his mind which made him do it.

JMO.

The psyche testing may be beneficial because, in all likelihood, it will rule out the defence of diminished responsibility in both the trial and as grounds for an appeal.
I think that is the reason why Nel pursued the psyche evaluation and Roux vehemently argued against it. JMO

 

[Hatfield]

In order to be shown not to be "criminally responsible" (the judge used this term and I like it) OP needs to be shown to be so unwell with his mental illness that he can't distinguish right from wrong. The bar for this is set very high and neither Dr Vorster nor the PT thought this was an issue. However, Nel got Dr Vorster to say that OP's GAD, could, at the court's discretion, be potentially be used - as a sort of sympathy ploy -to reduce his sentence. This is sort of like having your cake and eating it too and Nel is having none of it. Either OP is criminally responsible or he isn't and the assessment process will hopefully make it very clear that he is not so mentally unwell that diminished responsibility is an issue.

Untreated schizophrenia is a good example of a mental illness where paranoid delusions could and do diminish capacity, however a personality disorder or even GAD (Estelle's case from 1992 notwithstanding) should not be enough to impair OP's differentiation of right from wrong and thus won't effect his sentence.

Whether this assessment is a boon for the PT depends on whether you believe OP has potentially nasty personality traits that may come out during the intensive assessment process - many people he believe he has narcissistic tendencies which could, potentially, offset the DT's picture of him as a vulnerable, broken man. Plus, any evasiveness etc will also be duly noted.

Re BBM

If he gets assessed the right way I think this is exactly what is going to happen. I think the DT and OP and the public are going to be quite surprised as to how many disorders he truly has.

Whether any of them will help the DT or help the PT I have no idea but I am pretty sure he is going to have many disorders. Not the least of which is a severe narcistic complex.

 

[Trooper]

Prof Vorster was hampered in forming her view by the fact that she only had access to Oscar, his testimony ( not his x-examination by Nel, though ) , and a few selected ( selected by Oscar ) family and one friend. She had no access to other views, and other history except what Oscar told her. As she agreed , he could be lying. This is not unknown.

The panel who will do the assessment of Oscar will have access to a whole lot of other material, including that provided by the prosecution, and evidence so far presented in the trial.

It is just as likely they will find Oscar has no disabling defect or illness, or disorder. None that is extreme, none that prevent him from continuing to stand trial, and none that will be a mitigating factor , in that his quirks are not uncommon or extensive.

It was a nice touch by Nel, to bring to Vorsters attention when she was explaining her opinion of Oscar's locking of his bedroom door as ' extreme, and excessive hypervigilance' as an example of his disorder. Nel pointed out that another defence witness, Mr and Mrs N, who live next door, also lock their bedroom doors, and instruct and check up on their daughter to see that she has locked her bedroom door also. Does Mr and Mrs N 'extreme and excessive hypervigilance' make them a danger to the community?

 

[Cherwell]

Wth?...I hear a David Byrne song here

Qu'est-ce que c'est?

 

[nastasya]

The State of the Republic of South Africa believes he is a murderer, which is why they have instigated proceedings against him on that very charge.

The Republic of South Africa has appointed Nel to prosecute Oscar on the strong and provable belief that he committed murder.

The SAPS have investigated this occurrence on the belief that Oscar committed murder.


The only people who are obliged to believe Oscar is innocent , at the beginning of a trial is a jury, and even they are expected to weigh up the evidence presented and form a view, as the evidence is presented and the trial proceeds. Of course, the accused attorneys are expected to hold this belief at least in law for the duration of the trial. They are not obliged to forever believe it , either before or after the trial.

There is no jury in this trial. People often use this throwaway phrase of 'innocent until proven guilty'. and always forget the last part of the cliché.. 'in a court of law'.. it isn't applicable anywhere else,.. innocent is not a perpetual state that a criminal can rest in, forever claiming this position. It is, by law, only applicable until a trial begins. Its why trials are held, on the basis that innocence or guilt must be proven. Once a trial begins, and evidence presented it is necessary to form an ongoing view. 'Innocence ' is not the ground an accused person can cling to forever. It isn't meant to be. It is meant to be a starting point that is either confirmed or disproved.

And in this case OP provided a detailed confession to the killing. Reeva was not attacking him. He was in no danger. She did not lose her life through any legal means.

Standing over her dead body, OP declared his justification for killing her. Now he is obligated in the court of law to prove he killed her legally.

He now presented a witness that explained that OP has a personality that is dangerous, and would make him likely attack instead of flee. We now have expert testimony that supports PT's position that OP murdered Reeva because he is an irresponsible, easily agitated perp.

 

[nastasya]

The psyche testing may be beneficial because, in all likelihood, it will rule out the defence of diminished responsibility in both the trial and as grounds for an appeal.
I think that is the reason why Nel pursued the psyche evaluation and Roux vehemently argued against it. JMO

Nel just got the cake and is able to eat it too.

He has an expert and OP both testifying it's because of his personality that he committed the murder, and now he will have a cadre of expert reports to support the murder charge, AND that say he is not suffering from any diminished capacity mental illness.

I.e., OP is not crazy, he just acts like he is. That's why he's going to prison for a long time.

 

[jilly]

Thank you.

See this is what bothers me. How in the world can they do an outpatient assessment of someone. Dont they need to observe him in a closed setting and peek in on him at verious times of the day.

I cant see how he can just show up once a day or once a week for an hour and they are supposed to be able to assess him.

I am not sure if there even is such a thing as a valid 30 day assessment if he is not admitted as inpatient.

This sounds crazy to me.

Does anyone know when he has to show up yet for his assessment or is it even official yet that he is going for one?

Hi Hatfield.

I didn't like the out-patient proposal but it's been explained to us here that if it is, he will be there from 5am-9pm. Not sure if it's everyday or weekends off.
If he were to be committed to the institution, he'd have a wait of months before getting a bed. There are hundreds already on the list, apparently.

It won't be official until Tuesday when Her Ladyship gives the order. Pros and Def, in the meantime are working out the order for her to sign.

 

[Carmelita]

I was just going by the law, sections 78 and 79. This is criminal law. A link was posted by Panda. Since you obviously know something different about how criminal psychiatric observations are conducted, why don't you go ahead and tell me how they are conducted, and how my post is wrong. And please provide a link to support whatever it is that you say. Until you do that, I will stand by my reading of the law. TIA

:snake:

Here are your exact words;

And his own attorneys for having Dr. V do an eval of OP and then put her on the stand for Nel to crush and get OP sent to the looney bin to be evaluated for 30 days by at least 4 people that will use his testimony to test him. Man, OP is in trouble. Can you imagine 4 Mr. Nels with psychiatric experience questioning and probing OP over and over and over again for 30 days!?

anic:

Psychiatrists are physicians they take the Hippocratic Oath. If you think that anyone in the mental health field will treat Oscar as Nel did you are simply mistaken. What you are suggesting would be the willful harming of a human being by mental health professionals.

Mental health professionals that are not doctors also have the moral and legal obligation to not harm patients/clients in their care.

It is a simple case of morality.