Trial Discussion Thread #40

[Karmady]

Would the screaming be heard in a locked toilet before the hole in the door was created?.

Unfortunately, I have no idea and probably, based on the apparent dearth of forensics, neither does anyone else!

 

[lithgow1]

Here's one of my 'hmmm' moments - the whole waking up, what he saw or could of seen/the fans fandango/RS getting up and off the bed and walking down the hallway unheard and unoticed. I can't see how he couldn't have seen or perceived her.

To clear it up I suggest the court goes to the house in the early hours of the morning on a night with similar weather conditions and they re-enact it. The bloke can be OP, the younger woman RS and M'lady can sit in the corner and use her eyes and ears as instruments. I'm not joking really. Balcony lights on, doors open, fans where he said they were, and do the actions he claims they did. If I was them I'd want to know if it all was possible because I don't buy it at this point in time.

And another little thing that's been said and is worth repeating - why answer 'no' to 'can't you sleep baba' when you've been asleep for five hours? According to him he went out like a light so even in his own version he's not an honest man.

 

[Karmady]

Yes and they did.......................!!!!!!

I meant simultaneously...pfft

 

[Carmelita]

Amazing that you could even imagine such a thing! If the judge does not take full acount of witness evidence her judgement will be liable to be overturned. I'm more interested in sleuthing the event than the trial but I'm prepared to predict that both counsel will be talking a lot about the witness evidence in what we have yet to hear. And rightly so.

Yes a judge is going to know the law inside and out and be less swayed than a jury by her emotions or “ear witness” testimony that came a week after the event, other ear witness testimony is contradictory. I believe the good judge will sort it out more efficiently than a jury. Nothing really earth shattering in my opinion.

 

[DebinGA]

http://olympictalk.nbcsports.com/2014/04/10/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-reeva-steenkamp-thursday/

On Thursday, Pistorius was questioned about his recollection of the night of Steenkamp’s death. He said he was lying on her stomach and fell asleep, then woke up in the middle of the night feeling hot.

“I sat up in bed,” Pistorius said. “I put my head down, my hands on my head and rubbed my face. Reeva asked me if I couldn’t sleep. I said I can’t.” He said he then got out of bed

Gee, maybe OP didn't see Reeva leave the bed, what with his head down and his hands rubbing his face and all. Ridiculous.

 

[Carmelita]

What i find interesting is that it seems to fit with some personality traits that he has exhibited in the past and during this trial.
I think the "fight" to compete at London 2012 highlights this "war in OP psyche" you mentioned.
It fits with the fact that he was always shown to think like that , that the mind controls the body not viceversa.
It could be said that focusing on denial rather than acceptance (and the implications and ramifications denial of oneself limitations can carry going forward in life) of your limitations has proved detrimental to OP in other areas of OP persona. But i'm not such an expert to talk about that so you know...

Facial Micro/Macro/Mini/partial expressions are generated only at sub-conscious level , for they manifest themselves through no deliberate or voluntary thought process.

There are many books on the subject , which i have read many of , i've trained myself in seeing all this...as personal pleasure and interest , always promising myself to use it with utmost discretion as it can be very unhealthy

I understand the concept that micro/macro/mini expressions (well sincere ones as emotions can be faked) are generated at the subconscious level. My question is a little more complicated, if a person has a subconscious memory, will their mannerism reflect it or will the subconscious mannerism come from the easily retrievable memory portion of the brain?

 

[Lochlynsmom]

I think there were many that felt that Nel was brutal in his cross examination of OP. Many were saying that such a cross examination would never be tolerated in the United States and even the judge asked him to tone it down in that he can't call OP a liar.

I understand why Nel did this, he was trying to break OP down and I also understand the crime that OP is charged with, but as a human being, I did feel sorry for OP

I know some will feel that as a killer, there is nothing that is to harsh for OP, but remember the old saying, and eye for an eye eventually leaves everyone blind.

You obviously did not watch the Jodi Arias trial and her cross examination

 

[vansleuths]

If you were wondering which way this hospital visit might go for OP, check this stat out from a study

"This was consistent with findings in international studies. It also
showed that 73% of the sample was fit to stand trial and that the presence of a mental
disorder was not always associated with incompetence to stand trial. "

http://wiredspace.wits.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10539/10574/Desertation Corrected.pdf?sequence=1

 

[lithgow1]

I think there were many that felt that Nel was brutal in his cross examination of OP. Many were saying that such a cross examination would never be tolerated in the United States and even the judge asked him to tone it down in that he can't call OP a liar.

I understand why Nel did this, he was trying to break OP down and I also understand the crime that OP is charged with, but as a human being, I did feel sorry for OP

I know some will feel that as a killer, there is nothing that is to harsh for OP, but remember the old saying, and eye for an eye eventually leaves everyone blind.

True she did, but only on an occassion or two - on the whole she let him take the line and tone he did. I had no problem with it either. OP is tough - it's one of the few positive qualities I've credited him for - stolid, determined, strong - he largely withstood that cross like a champion. So if he handled it and his defence objected little and the judge allowed it then that's how it is there. No disrespect to our American friends on here but I get sick of commentary from a perspective of how it would be done in the States. Not that the differences aren't worth pointing out but once they've been acknowledged then deal with it. Same goes for Australia, UK, rest of Europe too if they're taking the same tack.

That defence dude, Mike someone, who is on CrimeTime on Lip TV goes on about it. Anyone know him? He's a tool IMO. On the episode when they were discussing the WhatsApp messages he downplayed, laughed at even, the state's claims that RS being upset about him getting the hump at that function cause she was talking to another guy as 'nothing much' and went on to say that 'lots of women like their men to show a bit of jealousy, they'd be bothered if he didn't care' and carp like that. I couldn't quite believe it and even worse the woman hostess was laughing and going along with it. That show is useless when Jim Clemente or some other person taking the prosecution line isn't on it.

 

[Emz73]

But you do need to have 'reception' or else the phone will not connect to anyone. That's what i was trying to say.

In the UK we really don't need a signal or reception to ring 999. My phone right now has zilch reception and it tells me I can only call 999. Maybe you don't have the same thing in USA or SA.

 

[Emz73]

Yes a judge is going to know the law inside and out and be less swayed than a jury by her emotions or “ear witness” testimony that came a week after the event, other ear witness testimony is contradictory. I believe the good judge will sort it out more efficiently than a jury. Nothing really earth shattering in my opinion.

Are you calling the ear witnesses liars Carmelita?

 

[Viper]

I think there were many that felt that Nel was brutal in his cross examination of OP. Many were saying that such a cross examination would never be tolerated in the United States and even the judge asked him to tone it down in that he can't call OP a liar.

I understand why Nel did this, he was trying to break OP down and I also understand the crime that OP is charged with, but as a human being, I did feel sorry for OP

I know some will feel that as a killer, there is nothing that is to harsh for OP, but remember the old saying, and eye for an eye eventually leaves everyone blind.

Whatever happened to Mr. Pistorius when he had to take the witness stand and answer questions really does not matter to me VS. I could care less. I am truly surprised that anyone could feel that OP was mistreated and mentally abused by Mr. Nel asking him questions. I don't remember the other side protesting Roux's absolutely obnoxious and careless questioning of the neighbors. Being so cold hearted as to drive one completely innocent woman to tears. Screw OP.

The doctors on the psyche panel will not be aggressive towards OP, but they will be relentless and they, like Mr. Nel, know exactly what they are doing. And you know what, they are not looking to break him psychologically, they don't have to. All they have to do is form an expert opinion of him based upon test results and his numerous interviews. But by them having his transcript of all of his versions of what happened that night, OP is going to be tailoring like mad trying to come off as being honest about anything that he said in court.

Such a stupid mistake that Roux made by bringing Dr. V and her report to the trial! Shaking my head... But I would thank him if I could, Reeva's family could not have asked Roux for anything more than what he did to OP with this.

So go on OP, run along on down to the psychiatric unit of the prison. There are some doctors that have a few questions about the night that you killed your girlfriend and what you were thinking about, every. step. of. the. way. I'm sure that it will be a pleasant and relaxing time for OP.

 

[katydid23]

A scenario (suspend your disbelief about specifics) and a question.

OP had a bad few days. Reeva comes over totally into VDay, OP not so much. Not a great night and at some point they fight. A lot. OP goes to sleep. Reeva can't. She goes downstairs and gets a snack, then comes back upstairs. OP wakes up and is angry all over again. They fight again, this time more intensely. Reeva considers leaving, but hasn't decided for sure. Both are tense. OP gets up to do whatever.. move fans, go on balcony, go downstairs... whatever. ( Yes, I know what he said he did, but since y'all think he lied about everything, why believe what he said he did here?)

Continuing. Reeve slips out of bed and goes to the loo. She may have decided to leave, or maybe she just had to pee. In either case she's quiet on purpose because she doesn't want the fight to escalate any further.

OP hears a noise in the bathroom. He is already enraged, has not let go of the fight. He doesn't check for Reeva. His first thought isn't protecting her, its that a SOB might be in his house.

He's angry - very - but he also is feeling vulnerable. Not afraid, but vulnerable because he is at a physical disadvantage. Just reality of the matter, and part of the reason he feels compelled to compensate for that disadvantage by always reaching for a gun.

The thought of pushing the panic button or running the other way never occurs to him. It doesn't because response to the panic button isn't instaneous, because if he turned his back to flee he might be overtaken, because he is OP, who isn't going to back down, and because his reasoning is already impaired by rage, increased exponentially by his perception that an intruder dared to threaten him.

He grabs his gun, runs down the hallway screaming get the f out. Reeva has no idea what's going on and stays silent. OP hears her move, perhaps she reaches for the door handle. He doesnt fire a warning shot because it never occurs to him to do so, not because he's afraid of a richocet.

He shoots once. The noise is deafening. Literally.

He doesn't hear her scream because of the deafening noise. He is also literally pumped on adrenaline, and furious. He pauses for a brief moment because the noise hurts his ears, and because the temporary loss of hearing increases his anger and his fear. He fires 3 more shots. He fires them knowing that he is firing them, and yes, hoping that the shots will eliminate the threat. He isn't trying to kill whoever is behind the door, but he knows enough even in that mental state that he is very likely to cause them serious injury.

Given that scenario ......(please don't argue about the details...its only a scenario) ....do you think he should be found guilty of murder?

YES. At the very least, negligent manslaughter, or the SA eguivalent. He shot a deadly weapon into a blind door, without knowing where his roomie was.

 

[Carmelita]

But why do their actions and reactions undermine what they heard. Just because they didn't do this or that doesn't mean they didn't hear what they say they did. The Stander girl did much the same thing - in fact she was so terrified she made herself safe before ignoring it until she knew OP was involved. Do we give her testimony to what she heard, not what she did, a 'Hmmm' too? And if that's why we're handing them out then doesn't Dr Stipp deserve a big 'bravo!'? Let's talk about his earwitness evidence since he went above and beyond.

BTW, didn't both of the two sets of neighbours at least attempt to make calls to security? If so it's more than Carice Stander did.

Eyewitness testimony is precarious, I imagine ear witness testimony even more so. I think the delay in reporting what they heard makes their testimony even more precarious.

I find Stripp credible but I don't give anyone infallibility.

Thanks for the hmmms........

 

[lithgow1]

Eyewitness testimony is precarious, I imagine ear witness testimony even more so. I think the delay in reporting what they heard makes their testimony even more precarious.

I find Stripp credible but I don't give anyone infallibility.

Thanks for the hmmms........

Like butterflies 'hmmms' are free so we can all have as many as we want. I have oodles re this case. You know Carmelita you say 'let's discuss the evidence' but then downplay it because of certain factors which, while they may be relevant, are not enough to disregard it entirely so it has to be dealt with. Despite the inconsistencies and problems there can be with direct witness testimony they all heard what sounded to them like a woman screaming just before a woman was shot dead. That's evidence so let's dicuss it. If you discount it was RS then your only alternative is OP was the one screaming for nigh on 15 minutes right?

 

[Hatfield]

.....snipped......

I am a petite woman and I have stopped my car on a street and gotten out of it to break up a fight between 2 boys larger (by far) than myself.

......snipped........

.

OT
Kudos to you for having the courage to break up the fight. It can be a dangerous time.....

I once witnessed a wicked fight between a guy and his girl outside a bar once and they were wailing on each other and finally someone jumped in to try to stop it thinking the girl was going to get hurt.

Well no sooner than the guy tried to step in, the girl gets mad at him and started pounding on the poor guy and beat him senseless. Then the original couple walked off arm in arm back into the bar for drinks.

It was the craziest thing I have ever seen. :floorlaugh:

 

[vansleuths]

The thing is, if this panel, and God help Oscar if it does, finds that he has an extremely debilitating mental defect, and/or illness, he will be kept as a State patient in the locked ward for as long as it is deemed necessary until he is either sane enough to conduct his instructions to his attorney, or so unwell he cannot be released in the foreseeable future outside the confines of the treating hospital. And that could mean 10 years, 15, even 20 years of mandatory treatment, whatever form it takes, .. regular evaluations, mandatory therapy, mandatory observation.. oh dear.

it makes prison look like a teddy bears picnic in comparison.

BIB Officially, OP would remain in the hospital until such time as he was well.....I don't have any statistics or numbers, but I wonder if there are some people that are deemed to be healed after 1 year or even 5 years of treatment and then released?

For OP, it might be better to take your chances with that then face the prospect of life in prison with no chance of parole for 25 years.

 

[Val1]

I'll try to explain. The article and your OP were supporting the idea that the bat came first. Presumably, the theory is that those bat strikes would have been directed at the door while she was cowering behind it. In that case, why would she scream AFTER the bat strikes but not during them. No one heard bangs and screams together like one of them heard a male and female voice together, for example. If I was cowering behind a door while my crazed lunatic boyfriend was trying to bash it down with a bat, I'd definitely be screaming!

Perhaps they couldn't hear her through the bathroom window until OP broke out that chunk in the toilet door(that OP said he could see her through) or she got the toilet window open(throwing her jeans out the window once she realized she couldn't fit through it?)?

Also, didn't OP state that he'd "spoken softly" at RS to "Get down!" and call the police just before he claims to have started screaming his lungs out at the intruders all/most of the way down the passage ... however, noone heard his screaming before the first set of bangs either, right?

I'm thinking that he had raced after her with the bat(after possibly hitting her with it re her unexplained bruises) and she got to the toilet room and managed to get in before he got there and was either holding it shut or had locked it. OP then enraged either hit the wall(possibly knocking the tiles off), and/or then dented the metal plate, whacked a few(2-3) times at the door breaking through it and basically scared the bejeezuz out of RS with his over reaction to whatever had happened, at which point she started calling for help and screaming to which he mocked her with his own help, help, help, told her to go ahead call the police and went to get his gun.

 

[Carmelita]

Like butterflies 'hmmms' are free so we can all have as many as we want. I have oodles re this case. You know Carmelita you say 'let's discuss the evidence' but then downplay it because of certain factors which, while they may be relevant, are not enough to disregard it entirely so it has to be dealt with. Despite the inconsistencies and problems there can be with direct witness testimony they all heard what sounded to them like a woman screaming just before a woman was shot dead. That's evidence so let's dicuss it. If you discount it was RS then your only alternative is OP was the one screaming for nigh on 15 minutes right?

In fairness I say that there are other conclusions that may be drawn about the evidence.

I don't agree that there is credible evidence that 5 people heard a woman screaming for 15 minutes, that is the beginning and end of my view, I know others disagree.

And I won't state it again because it has become a fruitless conversation at this point.

 

[Emz73]

In fairness I say that there are other conclusions that may be drawn about the evidence.
I don;t agree that there is credible evidence that 5 people heard a woman screaming for 15 minutes that is the beginning and end of my view I know others disagree.

And I won't state it again because it has become a fruitless conversation at this point.

The poster asked do you believe OP was screaming for 15 minutes?