Trial Discussion Thread #40

[Fuskier]

Posted for those among us, including myself, who are legally illiterate:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Inter+alia

Inter Alia Latin for "among other things."
This phrase is often found in legal pleadings and writings to specify one example out of many possibilities.

A phrase used in Pleading to designate that a particular statute set out therein is only a part of the statute that is relevant to the facts of the lawsuit and not the entire statute.

Inter alia is also used when reporting court decisions to indicate that there were other rulings made by the court but only a particular holding of the case is cited.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I haven't seen this interview before with OP's uncle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9L3f0TtMqQ

Posting in case others haven't seen it either!
I thought I'd seen them all...

Uncle Arnie said, "He’s battling. He’s having a tough time and he will never be the same. You know, you know, you can imagine if something like that happened to you."

Poor special little OP, he's the victim, we all know that. It just makes me want to uke:

 

[CriLondon]

Uncle Arnie said, "He’s battling. He’s having a tough time and he will never be the same. You know, you know, you can imagine if something like that happened to you."

Poor special little OP, he's the victim, we all know that. It just makes me want to uke:

All that i personally feel to say to that is " no , I can't imagine , because i'm pretty sure it would not happen to me" !!

 

[lisasalinger]

Before 3:17am Bat on stumps, then Gun on stumps at 3:17am... then after 3:17am Kick on prosthetics, and all state witness testimony and forensics fit. This is my first post on here (I live in South Africa, and have been following the Oscar Pistorius trial)... Since April we have thought that the crack through bullet hole D is CRUCIAL, and thrilled to see people on here are also considering it. We have a "bat gun kick" theory outlined here fully with timeline and testimony lined up: take a look and let me know if you think it has merit? <modsnip>
You all seem to be as intrigued with this case and I am.

Welcome and nice work on your theory! :seeya:

 

[Cherwell]

I dunno, perhaps on the grounds that an accused has the right to not incriminate themselves with their defence? ... Hopefully someone with better legal knowledge in SA can(or has, I'm playing catch up again) clarify.

I mean that the defence can't object to evidence simply because it incriminates or reflects badly on their client.

Nel did say that the prosecution isn't interested in challenging anything that happened after the shooting, so perhaps that's all there is to it. Maybe he thinks the Netcare call won't add anything of significance to his case.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I mean that the defence can't object to evidence simply because it incriminates or reflects badly on their client.

Nel did say that the prosecution isn't interested in challenging anything that happened after the shooting, so perhaps that's all there is to it. Maybe he thinks the Netcare call won't add anything of significance to his case.

This is true, but I can't imagine why the defence wouldn't use the recorded call to bolster the credibility of OP.
Unless there is no recording or it's inaudible or the DT have objected because it will incriminate their client who was under duress at the time of the call. At the end of the day, it's the Judge's call. jmo.

 

[JudgeJudi]

its an absurd hypothesis, sooz.. not only doesn't know he has it, but even after Vorster diagnosed him with it, he gets his defence attorney to refute the actual illness ,disorder, for the purpose of arguing against the sect 77 application.

So we could infer that Oscar not only didn't know he had this disorder, he certainly didn't seek treatment for it, and even after being diagnosed with it by his own expert witness, he denies he has it. One can only wonder how compliant he is with the treatment these last 8 DAYS of his current pharmaceutical regime.

And since he denies he has a disorder, IMO there's no way he'd be taking any pharmaceuticals ordered by anyone.

 

[BritsKate]

I dunno, perhaps on the grounds that an accused has the right to not incriminate themselves with their defence? ... Hopefully someone with better legal knowledge in SA can(or has, I'm playing catch up again) clarify.

I can't recall an emergency call being excluded full stop but there certainly have been occasions in which a defence has sought to do so - sometimes concessions have been made to provide a transcript to a jury instead of hearing a recording or censoring part of the recording.

There are many reasons evidence is sometimes excluded, including but not limited to, relevancy, prejudicial vs probative, time-wasting, etc.

There's a lot we don't know in this trial. For a start, its a bench only system which explains why there's been no 'emotional' testimony about Reeva - the family's loss, who she was, etc. Very matter of fact evidence without a lot of explanation is the rule of the game here. But we also don't know what evidence was stipulated - attorneys agreed, no argument required - and was simply submitted into evidence.

Wholly possible, and I'd lean to probable, that a netcare transcript or recording has been submitted. The reasons we haven't heard or read it could be any number of reasons - something as benign as privacy laws precluding broadcasting such a recording, for example. I dunno. I just don't think we should assume one doesn't exist just because it hasn't been publicised to the extent we see in other trials.

All JMO

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Cherwell]

This is true, but I can't imagine why the defence wouldn't use the recorded call to bolster the credibility of OP.
Unless there is no recording or it's inaudible or the DT have objected because it will incriminate their client who was under duress at the time of the call. At the end of the day, it's the Judge's call. jmo.

OP claims that he can't remember what he said to the Netcare operator, although he can remember what the operator said to him, namely to bring RS to the hospital himself. Hmmm.

If the recording of the call showed that he failed to state the true nature of the injuries, or that he lied about the operator's response, then there is no way that the defence would want to use the call as part of their evidence. However if the prosecution wish to use it, the defence can't object on the grounds that it would "incriminate their client". Trials wouldn't get far if that was allowed!

So I'm guessing that there's nothing especially useful to either side. Even if there is some problem with the recording, they could still have called the Netcare operator as a witness. Possibly OP was incoherent.

 

[Dphil]

Before 3:17am Bat on stumps, then Gun on stumps at 3:17am... then after 3:17am Kick on prosthetics, and all state witness testimony and forensics fit. This is my first post on here (I live in South Africa, and have been following the Oscar Pistorius trial)... Since April we have thought that the crack through bullet hole D is CRUCIAL, and thrilled to see people on here are also considering it. We have a "bat gun kick" theory outlined here fully with timeline and testimony lined up: take a look and let me know if you think it has merit? <modsnip>
You all seem to be as intrigued with this case and I am.

Wow - fantastic summarizing- like the different colours to show facts, etc.

Also how you've got the contradictions - really helps to see things at a glance.

What a lot of hard work - thanks so much.

 

[Dphil]

Me too! When my mom and I originally had the light bulb moment of the bat-gun-kick, it was the April Easter weekend here in SA. We had been away and missed the start of the trial, only picking up at Oscar's lame testimony. So we decided to go back and watch on youtube from day 1. In essence we were then watching from back to front, and so amazingly the error of order of bat and gunshots was so CLEAR. I actually went as far as contacting the National Prosecutors Authority and then mailing the diagram to Advocate Nel... who knows, the State may have had this in mind all along and will bring it out in closing? If they can. lease:

Absolutely - LOVE it - well done you!

It's amazing how this trial has gripped everyone so much.

I'm in the UK and am totally addicted to watching the drama unfold - and unfortunately that's what it is.

I feel heart sorry for Reeva's family. They know who killed her - and all he's doing is coming up with a fairy tale and avoiding any responsibility - all they want is the TRUTH!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Your are right as this article says, OP said during his evidence that since RS died he couldn't sleep and takes Cipralex for depression, and something to help him sleep.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/I-have-terrible-nightmares-Oscar-20140407

"I'm scared to sleep," Pistorius said, clutching a white tissue.

For several reasons. I have terrible nightmares about things that happened that night. I smell blood and I wake up to be terrified. I hear a noise, I wake up in just... in a complete state of terror..."

He said the turmoil drove him to climb into a cupboard one night and call his sister Aimee to comfort him, and spoke of religion as a support.
(There's something very creepy about this. All the soothing, praying, etc etc that's been going on in court. It seems OTT to me IMO.

"My God is a God of refuge," he said", but as we've discussed earlier, it's all about what God can do for him, not what he can do for God.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/04/07/the-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-day-17

 

[BritsKate]

I have to wonder if Roux arguing against Vorster wasn't more for legal reasons (like not wanting his client evaluated and certainly not wanting to risk the burden required for an involuntary defence) and less at Oscar's proposal to do so or insistence he isn't 'ill'.

JMO, but if he does have something like NPD, I'd think he'd love a diagnosis like GAD because it allows him to perpetuate his victim status.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[jay-jay]

Agreed. I should've said bat strikes --> gunshots --> bat used to pry panel out.

Main point is the bat was used both before and after the gunshots. MOO

I'm really sceptical about him having used the bat to prise the door panel out .. I think he ripped it out with his bare hands and I think OP even said he did that.

 

[jay-jay]

Thanks! It's a labor of love, I know that's odd, but finding like-minded people om here is great. x

Excellent stuff, and exactly what sluething is all about! I'm glad to see that the focus of discussion in general has returned to trying to work out the facts and evidence of the case as I personally think the current status of the trial with all the psychology stuff is a bit of a diversion .. possibly deliberately so.

 

[BatGunKick]

Hi BatGunKick. Your theory is excellent. I think you've got the phone call timeline wrong though. OP calls Stander at 03:19:03 and NetCare at 03:20:05 before calling Baba, according to the VodaCom call records. I guess it's possible that his call to Baba could have been to chase Stander (e.g. "where are you?") and he called the wrong number. Stander's number was identified in OP's phone as "Johan Silverwoods" according to Moller's evidence, but I don't think we know how he identified Silverwoods Security. Perhaps they could be confused if his phone list was sorted by surname and Silverwoods was recorded in the surname for Stander? Pure speculation on my part though.

Ahhh, I see what you're saying. Very damaging to call Stander before the paramedics. I found this on one of our news sites:

• At 12.30am, he had accessed the internet - this could include Whatsapp messages - and again at 3.18am, after the shooting.
• A minute later, he made a phone call to his estate manager Johan Stander, a 24-second call.
• He then called an ambulance service, a 66-second call.
• He then called at 3.21am to another number, the security of the estate.
• Seconds later, he called his own voice mailbox.
• Security then called back.
• At 3.55am, he called a friend, Justin Divaris for about 2 minutes.
• At 4.01am he called his brother Carl again.
• He also received an incoming call from “Peet” for about 49 seconds.

It was not clarified in court who Peet was, but it may refer to Pistorius's manager Peet van Zyl.

Thanks for pointing out! :cheers: I must change the blog post to reflect.

 

[fox1lady]

..."When I heard about your passing, the first thing I did was to call you, and when your phone rang my heart leapt with joy and relief, because then I expected to hear your voice saying, “No babe, it wasn’t me, they got the story wrong as always.” And when there was no answer … I felt my world slowly spinning off its axis, leaving me scared and dumbfounded"

Aww this is so sweet, and heartbreaking from Phuti who was on Tropika Island with Reeva. In case you havent' read it.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/not-just-the-girlfriend-reeva-was-a-rising-star/

 

[BatGunKick]

I'm really sceptical about him having used the bat to prise the door panel out .. I think he ripped it out with his bare hands and I think OP even said he did that.

I fully agree with you. Oscar has tried to include everything he did that night into his version (so as to then have an explanation for everything to tailor his testimony accordingly and cover up). HE keeps mentioning a kick, so I'm sure that's what he did to the door - after 3:17am. He mentions 3 things: 'shouldering the door' 'kicking the door' and 'breaking the panel out and throwing it into the bathroom' (the last one shows he is lying, as the panel actually fell into the toilet). Anyway, point being that he mentions these 3 things to cover up any noises heard after the shots. I think Dr Stipp heard one bang after the shots, maybe the plank falling in... a kick to an already weakened door would not travel to witnesses ears?

 

[Dphil]

I fully agree with you. Oscar has tried to include everything he did that night into his version (so as to then have an explanation for everything to tailor his testimony accordingly and cover up). HE keeps mentioning a kick, so I'm sure that's what he did to the door - after 3:17am. He mentions 3 things: 'shouldering the door' 'kicking the door' and 'breaking the panel out and throwing it into the bathroom' (the last one shows he is lying, as the panel actually fell into the toilet). Anyway, point being that he mentions these 3 things to cover up any noises heard after the shots. I think Dr Stipp heard one bang after the shots, maybe the plank falling in... a kick to an already weakened door would not travel to witnesses ears?

Hi Batgunkick!

What's your take on the phyciatric (sp) assessment? And what's the general consensus in SA regarding the introduction of this evidence?

 

[Dphil]

..."When I heard about your passing, the first thing I did was to call you, and when your phone rang my heart leapt with joy and relief, because then I expected to hear your voice saying, “No babe, it wasn’t me, they got the story wrong as always.” And when there was no answer … I felt my world slowly spinning off its axis, leaving me scared and dumbfounded"

Aww this is so sweet, and heartbreaking from Phuti who was on Tropika Island with Reeva. In case you havent' read it.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/not-just-the-girlfriend-reeva-was-a-rising-star/

Awww I was crying when I read that - specially when he insists that she's 'Reeva Steenkamp' NOT 'Oscar Pistorius's Girlfriend'.

She sounded like a really really nice person. What on earth was she doing with him - so so sad.