Trial Discussion Thread #43 - 14.06.30 Day 33

[Marfa Lights]

Sorry but helpful to what... or who?

I think you must mean "helpful" to the Judge and her assistants who for their considerations and weighing ups need to understand not only how sounds travel, e.g. distance, conditions, loss, gain, etc. etc. but also how we hear and how our brains interpret sounds, and understand that not always what we see or hear is what it seems. And more especially since the eyewitnesses along with the time of the bangs are imo the most important evidence in this trial, so you would expect that either the defence or the prosecution would have an expert put forward at least some basic theory or "concepts" so as the Judge and assessors can enter into considerations with a better understanding of what they should look for and expect while trying to disentangle the different screams and crying witnesses heard. And Masipa was extremely attentive and taking notes so surely you would agree that even if Lin's testimony was only useful to her, it should suffice for all of us to know that the clearer the understanding justice will always have a better chance.

And Nel hasn't even carried out the cross so perhaps your moment of "enlightenment" will come then as Lin will then not be able to just read his report but will have to answer direct and compromising questions that if Nel does his job should give you more insight.

Actually, my question was directed to Hope4More and I was interested in knowing what specific sound information they found helpful-- not just broad generalities. But thank you for taking time to respond.

 

[4MrsB]

Dr. Versveld's (OP's orthopedic surgeon) testimony seems to have simply strengthened the State's case. It supports the States contention that OP is lying & tailoring his testimony to assist his intruder story. After Dr.V testified to OP's vulnerability, pain, problems and difficulty on stumps and in darkness...seems so totally unlikely & improbable that this person with these limitations & this disability would ever consider heading directly INTO location of the perceived danger & TOWARDS the likely hood of an armed intruder, while....
1. On his stumps (OP has stated it takes only 30 sec or so to put prothesis on)
2. On his stumps, in total darkness
3. On his stumps, in total darkness & onto a hard tiled floor which both OP and this witness testified is VERY difficult & problematic for OP
4. On his stumps, in total darkness, forced to maneuver on difficult, slippery, painful hard surface AND while SHOUTING at intruder much of the way, alerting the intruder that now knows there is a person awake and aware they are there and is headed his/her way so "intruder" can be more prepared (not caught by surprise) and through OP's shouting, "intruder" now knows his exact location.

All this done in his most vulnerable state, as opposed to few options that immediately come to mind, like:
A) grab gun & girlfriend (who is awake a few feet away) and exit bedroom quietly
B) grab gun, alert girlfriend & have her assist "guarding passageway" with gun, as you quickly throw on your prothesis. Passageway is long and no other way out of bathroom than to be a sitting duck as intruder walks down it towards bedroom. And if no one is shouting, intruder has no idea anyone is lying in wait, armed with a gun. And it's dark so can't see RS & OP with gun pointed at passageway.
C) Here's a thought - push a simple button & use the expensive alarm system to notify security. They'll come running & armed. That's why you pay the big bucks to live in this high security neighborhood.
D) Call police/security while staying quiet & pointing loaded gun at passageway. Have Reeva hide on balcony while calling security on cell phone.
E) Stay quiet so not to alert intruder to your presence, exact location & the danger you now pose to them.
F) etc, etc...endless possibilities that are better than: ALERT INTRUDER with shouting, while heading TOWARDS intruder on stumps (leaving your awake girlfriend literally in the dark with no knowledge of the danger that you believes exists, why you believe it exists & where it is coming from).

 

[AJ_DS]

Sorry, you are respectfully incorrect. ➊The "cops" controlled the crime scene therefore were responsible for every item there during that time. ➋The "cops" didn't take the cable into evidence, therefore they are responsible for that too.

And to be fair the "cops" probably didn't need it but much later, without checking they had the cable, Nel decides to use the cable, or a photo of it, to prove a part of the State's case, i.e. that OP's testimony of what happened when he returned to the bedroom couldn't possibly be true.

Now, if I have this correct, for the relative part of the State's evidence to stand in evidence, Nel would have to enter the cable into evidence and file it with the court, along with the measurement of the distance from fan to plug which from a photo of the cable Nel affirmed could not reach where OP said it had been plugged in. otherwise IMO it will have to be struck off the record which is what I believe Roux is going for, not the cable itself which he knows is never gonna appear now.

Respectfully, you are incorrect.

If Police had seized the extension cord and it appeared in the inventory, then the State would have to produce it… being unable to do so would be serious.

If State had used the extension cord to make their case for murder, then they would have to produce it… being unable to do so would be serious.

But this is NOT the case on both counts… it was not seized, it was not used and therefore there was no chain of custody for that extension cord… same as 99.99 % of items inside Oscar's house.

The ONLY thing Roux can state as fact is that between 14 February 2013 and 15 February 2013, the extension cord was moved… but so was about everything in that bedroom… police conducted an extensive forensic investigation… it is to be expected.

The State released the house to the Defence on 17 February
The State divulged to the Defence the inventory of seized items
The State divulged to the Defence the photos taken

If Roux had said on 17 February 2013 : Where is the extension cord ?… then he would have a case against the police for not preserving the crime scene.

Is the State responsible for any and all items in Oscar's house after they release the house back to the accused… of course not.

From the 17 February 2013 to 6 June 2014, the content of Oscar's house was in Oscar's custody.

The State can never foresee what the accused will say on the stand… Oscar said that he moved the large fan at the head of the bed… Nel simply tested Oscar on that, based on the only thing that was available to him, i.e. the photographs.

Same goes with the small floor fan being plugged… Nel had no way of knowing Oscar would say that… in fact up until the plea explanation, Oscar had only talked about a single fan, the large tripod fan… so Nel used the photographs to show that the extension cord had only 2 plugs which were used by the large fan and the hair clipper… the small fan could not have been plugged there.

Does this mean that the State must produce the extension cord, the hair clipper, the large fan, the small fan… No.

 

[Duchy]

To quote Cottonweaver....

I read a precis on SA Times which said Defence had had a better day today. If this is all DT can come up with over 30 day break it's not looking strong.

In UK Sky News have a programme on at 21.30 each night of the tral about the day's proceedings. Tonight a forensic psychologist and another guy were discussing today's proceedings and they were of the opinion that the defence had a bad day and said the more witnesses the defence calls the weaker their case gets.

:nevermind::applause:

 

[Viper]

It is really funny to me that the defense is now relying on an extension cord and a sound expert saying that the witnesses could not have heard what they heard. SMH!!!

Regarding OP having pain if he were to walk on his stumps: Why did he testify that Reeva called him to brush his teeth before bed that night and he did so, walking to the bathroom and brushing his teeth and walking back to the bed, on his freakin' stumps??? SMH again.

It just gets curiouser and curiouser. LOL! What new silly stuff will follow on in the next two weeks? Hmm...

 

[soozieqtips]

It is really funny to me that the defense is now relying on an extension cord and a sound expert saying that the witnesses could not have heard what they heard. SMH!!!

Regarding OP having pain if he were to walk on his stumps: Why did he testify that Reeva called him to brush his teeth before bed that night and he did so, walking to the bathroom and brushing his teeth and walking back to the bed, on his freakin' stumps??? SMH again.

It just gets curiouser and curiouser. LOL! What new silly stuff will follow on in the next two weeks? Hmm...

BBM - exactly. If it was that painful to walk on them, why didn't he keep his legs on until he was ready to get into bed? Makes no sense that he'd choose to hobble around in pain.

 

[AJ_DS]

It is really funny to me that the defense is now relying on an extension cord and a sound expert saying that the witnesses could not have heard what they heard. SMH!!!

Regarding OP having pain if he were to walk on his stumps: Why did he testify that Reeva called him to brush his teeth before bed that night and he did so, walking to the bathroom and brushing his teeth and walking back to the bed, on his freakin' stumps??? SMH again.

It just gets curiouser and curiouser. LOL! What new silly stuff will follow on in the next two weeks? Hmm...

BiB… Indeed… I would imagine that OP would always put on his prosthetics to avoid the pain and the risk of falling

It's always the same thing with OP : good enough when it helps his Defence but not good enough to help the State's case… he wants his cake and to eat it to.

It's too dark to notice Reeva got out of bed and went to the bathroom…too dark to notice she is no longer in bed…. but not so dark as to prevent him from walking and running around on his stumps without tripping on extension cords, wires, hair clippers, iPads, duvet, fans, etc… not even so dark as to prevent him from seeing the jeans on the floor, retrieve his gun, etc…

Fans were loud enough so as to hear Reeva get out of bed and go to the bathroom… but not so loud that he couldn't hear the bathroom window open !!!

Lies, on top lies, on top of more lies.

 

[DebinGA]

OP didn't just approach and shoot the intruder on his stumps. He remained on his stumps much longer than someone supposedly in great pain would have. After his supposed feeling around the dark bedroom for RS on his stumps, he hurried back to the bathroom and shoulder-butted the wc door with cocked gun still in hand and bathroom light still off ... if you believe OP and not the so far unimpeached Dr. and Mrs. Stipp. Then, still on stumps, still holding cocked gun, and still not turning on any lights, OP says he hurried back to the dark bedroom and, cocked gun still in hand, somehow avoided hitting the big fan in his path as he unlocked/opened the balcony doors one-handed and called "Help" 3x. Only then did he don his legs, turn on a bedroom light, grab the bat, and return to the bathroom, where he says he felt safe enough to finally turn on the light.

 

[44ALLAN]

IMO - someone has been bought at a high level in this trial.

I would be interested in your opinion as to why you think that !

Not really holding my breath as to a response though :facepalm:

 

[cottonweaver]

I would be interested in your opinion as to why you think that !

Not really holding my breath as to a response though :facepalm:

I know it's not what was intended in your post & quote but ...
Roux doesn't get out of bed for less than R40,000 a day!

 

[44ALLAN]

I also get the distinct impression that Roux is not captain of the ship… there is a puppeteer behind the scene that is animating the puppet… which makes the Defence look so bad and disorganized.

I suspect the puppeteer to be Oscar himself… he believes himself to be so smart…smatter than everybody… and it's his money… Roux is basically just along for the OP funded fun-ride.

I agree.
Watch todays proceedings carefully.
Oscar was passing notes incessantly and sometimes quite 'aggressively' IMO !.
And Roux was objecting for fun...............He's definitely under pressure and I can see defence Number 4/5 coming very soon ...........I have no counsel M'lady can we postpone for 6 month?

 

[Val1]

It is really funny to me that the defense is now relying on an extension cord and a sound expert saying that the witnesses could not have heard what they heard. SMH!!!

Regarding OP having pain if he were to walk on his stumps: Why did he testify that Reeva called him to brush his teeth before bed that night and he did so, walking to the bathroom and brushing his teeth and walking back to the bed, on his freakin' stumps??? SMH again.

It just gets curiouser and curiouser. LOL! What new silly stuff will follow on in the next two weeks? Hmm...

bbm - My question is, which bathroom did they brush their teeth in? Don't forget the evidence that showed that someone had done this in a "spare" room.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-9-and-10-crime-scene-photos/

He then went in to the second spare bedroom, again on his own. He entered the bedroom and went in to the bathroom area and noticed a toothbrush and toothpaste that had been used. There were signs that somebody had been staying in that room. No further details were given during testimony and Roux didn’t ask him anything about this.

 

[44ALLAN]

I know it's not what was intended in your post & quote but ...
Roux doesn't get out of bed for less than R40,000 a day!

Lol................I'm glad you realised that cw
I was more interested in the 'it runs deep accusations' without any substance whatsoever :facepalm:

 

[liesbeth]

any link to Judge Greenland's comments ?

Here's Judge Greenland's Youtube channel. This afternoon's discussion's not posted there yet, but I think it should be up soon.

https://www.youtube.com/user/chrisng53/videos

 

[east2west]

Well, I learned something new tonight - a tripod fan can be used as a walking aid, according to this doctor! :facepalm: I must get one for my partner's elderly father & tell him to toss his cane.

FYI..in case you hadn't heard. Cane used as a murder weapon:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...-confess-to-a-killing-263556741.html?mobile=y

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[Suthrnqt]

Judge Greenland thinks this sound testimony is fairly useless and describes it as "desperate tactics".

100% agree with ^^^^this.

 

[Greater Than]

My local news (in the U.S.) reported on today's proceedings. A reporter on assignment in SA stated that the case -- testimony, closing arguments, and a verdict -- will conclude within the next few weeks.

Considering how slowly everything in this case has moved thus far I'm a little skeptical of that claim, but I thought I'd share what was reported.

 

[liesbeth]

My local news (in the U.S.) reported on today's proceedings. A reporter on assignment in SA stated that the case -- testimony, closing arguments, and a verdict -- will conclude within the next few weeks.

Considering how slowly everything in this case has moved thus far I'm a little skeptical of that claim, but I thought I'd share what was reported.

A bit of local gossip...

There's been a bit of speculation on the local Oscar Trial TV channel tonight that Nel could apply to reopen his case. The panel said that Roux will oppose but that the judge would, in all probability, grant the application. Cape Town Crim suggested this a while ago, remember?

Anyway. They then said that Nel could very well put Oscar back on the stand to cross him on Dr. V's evidence today (which is basically hearsay according to them and should have been introduced during Oscar's testimony in chief). To their credit they were very professional and not a hint of glee showed on any of their faces when they said it.

Oh, and they also said that Roux's application for the cord had no legal basis at all. They felt it was a ploy by the defence to make the prosecution/police look bad.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"Mr Charm", Barry Roux is doing everything he possibly can for the client. Even to playing games with the court. That whole debacle when he was "so sorry M'lady but my witnesses for today did not show up" and the next day it was "so sorry M'lady but I have no more witnesses for today. I thought the cross examinations would take longer. Perhaps Mr. Nel could ask more questions. Ha Ha".

What he was actually doing was buying time for the recently hired psychiatrist to interview Oscar, his friends and his family members and to write up her report. And she barely came in under the wire with her report at that.

Remember when the psychiatrist came into court and Roux was having a fit because she was on the other side of the courtroom from him? He had wanted to stop her and say something to her as she was on her way to the witness box. He was unable to do so and boy oh boy was he angry at his assistant lawyers.

Roux is skillful at playing courtroom games. But so is Nel, I am sure.

--------------------

Five witnesses heard screaming in the still of the night. Five witnesses heard screaming in the still of the night at the very time that Reeva was murdered. Roux can bring in 50 acoustic experts to talk about sound quality, but those five witnesses will not go away.

------------
Because someone was inquiring about "Frank", the guy who also lived in Oscar's house. Yes, IN the house. Not in a separate building. Supposedly Franks room was "next to the kitchen".

Frank was on the scene, outside the front of the house at the time of the arrival of the Security Guards. His presence there was not mentioned in any testimony.

According to what I have read, on the night of the murder Frank claimed to police that he was asleep in his room, slept throughout the entire event, and heard nothing at all. But somehow Frank was outside, in the driveway area, and I assume dressed as opposed to in his pajamas - but nothing said that.
But SOMETHING must have awakened him.

Days later when police wanted to question Frank further, it turned out he had left the country and returned to his native land. All articles indicate he has never been further interviewed by police.

----------------------

I don't think Barry Roux is desperate. I think he is resigned. He is going through the motions, based on years of experience. And he is so skilled that even just going through the motions is better than what many lawyers probably would do.

I hope someday he writes a book!

 

[AJ_DS]

A bit of local gossip...

There's been a bit of speculation on the local Oscar Trial TV channel tonight that Nel could apply to reopen his case. The panel said that Roux will oppose but that the judge would, in all probability, grant the application. Cape Town Crim suggested this a while ago, remember?

Anyway. They then said that Nel could very well put Oscar back on the stand to cross him on Dr. V's evidence today (which is basically hearsay according to them and should have been introduced during Oscar's testimony in chief). To their credit they were very professional and not a hint of glee showed on any of their faces when they said it.

Oh, and they also said that Roux's application for the cord had no legal basis at all. They felt it was a ploy by the defence to make the prosecution/police look bad.

The rational side in me says Nel wouldn't have much to gain by reopening the States case at this point…but the trial-junky in me says yippie kay yeah, bring that bumbling fool back on the stand and grill 'em some more !!