Trial Discussion Thread #47 - 14.07.8, Day 38

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BBM - Have you got a link for that by any chance?

1. I doubt the missing extension cord would be grounds for appeal, because OP's testimony didn't rely on a single cord to prove guilt or innocence.

2. Couldn't Roux simply have asked for an adjournment until the psychiatrist was fit to attend if it was that important?

3. Roux could have subpoenaed them, but he didn't.

4. Any mention of which of Masipa's rulings against the DT? I thought she was overly cautious much of the time in order to avoid any possibility of an appeal.

I think the DT are clutching at straws yet again. If OP is jailed on the gun charges, he can sort out his appeal from jail. If he's convicted of murder, he should be kept away from the public. Innocent people shouldn't have to tolerate a trigger-happy convicted murderer in their midst.

1. Agreed… but an Appeal is not a sniper precision shot it's a sawed off double barreled shotgun shot… you throw a bunch of stuff at the Judges in hopes something is to their liking… why do you believe Roux asked for the extension cord so late in the Trial ??

2. That's an interesting point… Roux did not say anything yesterday about his psychiatrist being unable to consult because of heart attack… Roux just said he wanted to consult with the PT's psychiatrist.

3. Yes and no… dragging witnesses against their will, will not produce a favorable or even a fair result… did Roux object to the Trial being televised at the very beginning ?

4. All of them… every ruling against the DT will be scrutinized and an angle will be found and pleaded in the Appeal.

… why do you believe Roux as put all these things into Court record this morning ?

BiB… Totally agree…. but prepare and brace yourself for bitter disappointment on these issues… as soon as the verdict is read, Roux will ask for a leave to Appeal and it will be granted.
 
It's very humbling to have to ask, but what are "Heads of Arguments"?

If OP had pleaded guilty to the gun charge/s, wouldn't he lose the right to appeal and avoid jail during the appeal process?

closing arguments

BiB… no
 
1. Agreed… but an Appeal is not a sniper precision shot it's a sawed off double barreled shotgun shot… you throw a bunch of stuff at the Judges in hopes something is to their liking… why do you believe Roux asked for the extension cord so late in the Trial ??

2. That's an interesting point… Roux did not say anything yesterday about his psychiatrist being unable to consult because of heart attack… Roux just said he wanted to consult with the PT's psychiatrist.

3. Yes and no… dragging witnesses against their will, will not produce a favorable or even a fair result… did Roux object to the Trial being televised at the very beginning ?

4. All of them… every ruling against the DT will be scrutinized and an angle will be found and pleaded in the Appeal.

… why do you believe Roux as put all these things into Court record this morning ?

BiB… Totally agree…. but prepare and brace yourself for bitter disappointment on these issues… as soon as the verdict is read, Roux will ask for a leave to Appeal and it will be granted.
Okay, thanks. There's much more detail here.

http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistorius-trial/2014/07/pistorius-guilty-can-appeal-win/

"Moreover his bail will be extended to the hearing of the appeal so assuming he is sentenced to prison he will at least buy himself a bit more time at home pending the outcome of the appeal".
 
Did Roux mention at the start of the trial that 'several' witnesses wouldn't give evidence because it was being televised?

Or did he add this information in right at the end?
 
Can someone summaries what will happen when court resumes? What exactly are closing arguments and how will they argue and what are the steps until the verdict is read
 
Did Roux mention at the start of the trial that 'several' witnesses wouldn't give evidence because it was being televised?

Or did he add this information in right at the end?

Roux could not foresee at the beginning of the Trial 1) which witness he would want to call and 2) which witness would eventually refuse to testify

Even if the DT did not object to the Trial being televised (I don't remember if they did)… if the DT can show that they were objectively prejudiced because the Trial was televised, it would make for good grounds for an Appeal.
 
Can someone summaries what will happen when court resumes? What exactly are closing arguments and how will they argue and what are the steps until the verdict is read

Both PT and DT will prepare their closing arguments in written form and submit them to the Judge

Then both will present them in Court orally.

Closing arguments is the summary of the case, the major points, etc… perhaps easier if you Google it and read the legal definition.

After that, Masipa and the 2 assessors will deliberate and eventually return with a verdict
 
Are closing arguments "filed" beforehand in the U.S.? If so, I don't remember discussion about it during a trial.

Re Roux's witnesses, were any of the ones we saw impressive? Pathologist Jan Botha, the first defense witness, seemed the most professional imo, and he ended up generally supporting Dr. Saayman iirc. Christina Lundgren, the anesthetist called to support OP's claim that RS last ate at 7:00 p.m., handled herself well until she admitted to Nel she didn't know the quantity of food found in RS's stomach. When told, she concluded Reeva must have consumed 2 liters of food for OP's tale to be possibly true. Roger Dixon was a joke and Roux is entirely to blame for what followed. Wolly Wolmaran's admission that he'd never spoken to OP about anything gun related spoke volumes. Ditto Roux's failure to call eminently qualified ballistics expert Jannie van der Westhuizen, also on the DT and much healthier than Wolly. Roux's sham regret over the witnesses too afraid to appear is ridiculous, given the bunch he called and the money he had available to hire the best.
 
Assuming that all legal appeals will eventually fail, Oscar Pistorius will not see the inside of a prison for at least a few years.

During this time, Oscar will travel, enjoy life, …perhaps get married and start a family !!!
 
Roux could not foresee at the beginning of the Trial 1) which witness he would want to call and 2) which witness would eventually refuse to testify

Even if the DT did not object to the Trial being televised (I don't remember if they did)… if the DT can show that they were objectively prejudiced because the Trial was televised, it would make for good grounds for an Appeal.

I cannot think of anything that would have prejudiced them? Lots of trials are televised and verdicts not overturned. They would have to bring forward a witness that would admit they would not testify because of the publicity and they would have to show how the evidence they would have presented would have affected it's case...Maybe if they got Frank to stand up but still they could have subpoened him so...
 
I haven't had a chance to listen to any testimony from today yet, but from Twitter, does it sound like Roux was laying more ground work today for an appeal?

He said that they won't call Dr. Fine because he had a heart attack and there were many more witnesses that were not called because they feared the media scrutiny. However, WhoopWhoop did say that these witnesses could have been subpoenaed.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are along the lines of the refrain, "you can lead a horse to water etc..."

It obviously depends on what the witness you want to subpoena is supposed to have been witness to, but dealing with possible ear witnesses like Frank Chiziweni, if they stick to guns claiming they were in a deep sleep and didn't hear anything until awakening just prior to the Standers arriving, which iirc is by which time when Frank had appeared, IMHO there is absolutely zilch you can do to prove otherwise.

I mean, not even the threat of criminal charges would persuade since although perjury, collusion, conspiracy and obstructing the course of justice are all criminal offences, the reasonable doubt would be on the alleged witnesses side so that as long as they stuck to their story it would be impossible to convict them of anything since it is a fact some people sleep very deeply and, like me, can have someone hoovering beside them and still not wake up, which is one helluva reasonable doubt for any judge or jury to miss out.

IMO, subpoenaing a witness can only work if there is other evidence to support that they know something they are not telling. Like for example someone saying Frank confided in them that he heard everything. But proving someone heard or saw something without any other evidence to support is impossible and trying to can only result in a hiding to nothing and a waste of court time.

In respect of laying grounds for an appeal, IDK but I really don't think so. In any case according to a couple of SA lawyers today, Dadic among them, unless found innocent on all accounts, (hardly likely), an appeal is already a given and there will be no shortage of grounds to adduce. This is normal practice in judge based system (Amanda Fox a case in point) since the Judge's reasoning is all spelt out and since judge's are human it is not rare to find something worth appealing about. For example Masipa's decision on Dr Kotze is it appears a unique situation with no precedent in SA. IDK in SA, but in some countries precedents have to be confirmed by at least 2 appeal courts before they can be accepted as law for similar situations. That could be a ground imo and if the system is how I believe it may be and her decision is to become a formal precedent or case law for psycho panels from now on appealing it at least once would be a necessary step in that process.
(just my thoughts and not facts unless otherwise stated)
 
Okay, thanks. There's much more detail here.

http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistorius-trial/2014/07/pistorius-guilty-can-appeal-win/

"Moreover his bail will be extended to the hearing of the appeal so assuming he is sentenced to prison he will at least buy himself a bit more time at home pending the outcome of the appeal".

From that link: "Once a date has been allocated a date will be given to the parties on which they have to submit their heads of argument which is a summary of the grounds of appeal and where the court a quoerred as well as a complete list of the case law relied upon in arguing that the SCA should come to a different finding"

So the "heads of arguments" are "summary of the grounds of appeal" plus case law and not the closing arguments given at the end of trial?
 
The DT must really be worried about what the verdict is going to be then, if they have ensured they've put a few things out there for an appeal. If they were that confident (and confident that OP was telling the truth) then they wouldn't even need to be doing this.


Desperation, that's what it is .. and to use something like the trial being televised and putting off witnesses is just ridiculous .. they don't think that this would've been looked into at the start of the trial? The judge has been so careful throughout to ensure that OP received a fair trial .. even allowing stuff which really did not ought to have been allowed .. she surely wouldn't have let a simple thing like this to have been available as a reason for appeal, therefore my view is that it will be dismissed.
 
Assuming that all legal appeals will eventually fail, Oscar Pistorius will not see the inside of a prison for at least a few years.

During this time, Oscar will travel, enjoy life, …perhaps get married and start a family !!!

As hard as it is for me to admit I believe this will be the outcome. If nothing else I have resigned myself to the fact he may just be labeled a murderer but never be held accountable in the justice system :(
 
Assuming that all legal appeals will eventually fail, Oscar Pistorius will not see the inside of a prison for at least a few years.

During this time, Oscar will travel, enjoy life, …perhaps get married and start a family !!!

All it needs is one very foolish woman...
 
I remember Masipa saying that she didn't read newspapers, look at billboards etc re the case. I believe it would be an utter travesty of justice if she doesn't see it

Wow! I would think it would be a travesty of justice if Judges and juries came to their verdicts using the media and online blogs as a source! And a step further, such an idea would appear to make the total media and online blackout system from the commission of a crime until trial adopted in the UK a travesty of justice all around! Wow again!
 
I cannot think of anything that would have prejudiced them? Lots of trials are televised and verdicts not overturned. They would have to bring forward a witness that would admit they would not testify because of the publicity and they would have to show how the evidence they would have presented would have affected it's case...Maybe if they got Frank to stand up but still they could have subpoened him so...

Not a difficult thing to produce a bunch of affidavits of Defence witnesses that state that :

1) they refused to testify because of the media circus around the OP Trial.

2) their testimony and evidence would have been relevant and probative.

I suspect those affidavits are already signed.
 
From that link: "Once a date has been allocated a date will be given to the parties on which they have to submit their heads of argument which is a summary of the grounds of appeal and where the court a quoerred as well as a complete list of the case law relied upon in arguing that the SCA should come to a different finding"

So the "heads of arguments" are "summary of the grounds of appeal" plus case law and not the closing arguments given at the end of trial?
The closing arguments are totally separate, as far as I know. I wonder if Judge Masipa could legally refuse an appeal and then let OP try and co-ordinate it from jail? Doesn't seem fair on Reeva's family that OP could be enjoying the freedom (freedom he denied Reeva) for however many more years. They must feel sick to their stomachs.
 
[...]

I think the DT are clutching at straws yet again. [...]

In terms of a long-term successful appeal I think you're right. But in terms of keeping the ball in the air and OP out of gaol, alas it's another matter. OP is playing the system and Roux will be able to live on caviar and champagne at his family's expense for as long as it goes on, which may be very long indeed.

Meanwhile, of course, every sane person will cancel all holidays planned in South Africa and any business affairs that might make such a visit necesary, and make their reasons for doing so very clear - preferably by a letter to the relevant embassy and press. Irrespective of what makes OP shoot people dead he should be under lock and key until we are sure that there is no chance of its happening again.
 
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