Trial Discussion Thread #48

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well it's offensive to me and your point is based on the premise that being a celebrity, with fame and fortune gives you 'more' in life than the average person. Plus, I don't see any sincere remorse in OP. Anyway, each their own.

I made no comment about remorse. As far as I can see, Pistorius has shown none.

Yes, IMO it does make a difference that he is a celebrity. And while many people may not have known of him before the murder, they certainly do now. Were he not famous, the entire case would probably have gone unreported outside SA. (I don't think Reeva was famous enough outside SA for that to have been a factor.) Compare this. I know a man, a quiet chap who keeps himself to himself but always civil and friendly. Most people where I live know him because of the job he does. I think most of them are totally unaware that he is a convicted murderer, sentenced to life imprisonment as is the statutory sentence in the UK. He has been out on parole for many years. Someone as famous as OP would not be able to live like this fellow does, with hardly anyone knowing what he did in the past.
 
BIB, Perhaps I wasn't clear in what I was trying to convey. I don't believe that OP should get away with murder. If the court does find him guilty of murder, then certainly he deserves to go to justice.

All I meant to say that was that we've seen time and time again where an accused murder walks free because of their celebrity status or a technicality. When this occurs, life tends to find a way to dole out justice and while he may not be in jail, he face justice from civil society.

In terms of him losing everything, yes he hasn't lost his life like Reeva, but he has lost everything that was dear to him including is fame, his sponsorships, relationships. His life will never be the same as a result of this.

AWE! How sad ( being very factious) .
 
Thank you for answering my post. Yes I am a fence sitter on this one. On one hand I can see that if someone believed they were vulnerable they could take the wrong reaction out of fear and just shoot. If this was paranoia or phobia for example. I can also see as I posted that he could have shot her through feeling justified to retaliate if she had incensed him some how. But also I can see a blend of the two. For example OP overreact in a disagreement -shoots- realises what he has done - regains some composure - comes up with 'intruder dun it' story. This is where the Judge will sift through the data, know what is fluff, guff and padding from the advocates on both sides, triage down to critical facts and deliberate. I have no doubt the judge will be a wake up to any pretence of wheeling out the disability when required, she is no mans fool.

I am not a OP supporter just an I interested observer. I am however keen to see far less violence against women. If this young man did this deed in hot blood, the evidence will be clear to the judge and her professional team.

We have been discussing the pros and cons of having professional no jury in trials over here. I think they have there place especially with a 12 person jury and one of them is recalcitrant for example. In Queensland for murder all members of the jury must agree to the verdict.

Would you have preferred to have a jury? I would be interested to know. I will continue to read all your posts and views. It is an eye opener to read posts where I think "Now why hasn't anyone else come with that idea so far!"

Cheers Hooly

BIB - You may be able to see it from that perspective, but it is still against the law. To be a licensed gun owner, you have to pass a firearm competency exam. Licensed gun owners are aware that it is illegal to shoot at an unseen or unidentified target, regardless of how frightened you are. Even if you can see the person and you identify them as an intruder, if they are not actively threatening your life, you cannot legally shoot. Further, the law requires that if you're able to safely escape an imminent threat on your life, you must do so. Killing another human being is only lawful if there if no other option available in order to protect your own life. It must be your last and only resort.
 
Thank you for clarifying.

Your BIB is exactly what I think happened.

That almost toddlerish drive to try and shirk any responsibility seems to be an ingrained character trait (in my view):

- he never fired the gun in the restaurant (it just miraculously and coincidentally went off in his hand and it was his friend's fault for giving it to him in the first place);
- he never fired the gun through the sun roof (everyone else is lying);
- he suffers from lots of violence against him making him feel vulnerable - gosh he was even shot at whilst driving (except that he cannot produce any credible corroboration);
- people keep lying about him (several different people describe very similar events where he was both abusive and threatening, but according to him, butter wouldn't melt in his mouth).

Then there was the shooting of Reeva - apparently it is her own fault because she didn't scream when she was in the toilet cubicle. The final insult on top of the injury he did her and so, so cynical given that five people DID hear the poor woman screaming in fear for her life before she was gunned down.

Well said, Lyra.

It’s not enough that he executed her - he has to blame her “silence” for her own death. The man is VILE.
 
Thanks for replying.

I would have to agree that there IS a lot of holes and inconsistencies to wade through ! And though it is clear that there was no necessity to just shoot in this instance (could have skedaddled?), if he really did believe there was an intruder (because I think from what I have read he did have a paranoia that this was going to happen one day - default mindset)
he could have mentally went straight to 'the intruder is here - must get gun and put into practice what I have been readying myself for...."
especially if he knew the ladder was outside - could have given him the yips. (sorry about the long sentence)
I know it seems weak.... That could account for bigger that needed weapon to counterbalance his (private) opinion that he was more vulnerable etc..

However regardless he should of left first, not shot first. I have mixed doubts, and OP confounded me a few times with implausible points that just beggars belief.

The judge is maybe going to need at times a Valium-salt-lick and a few double brandies on standby in her deliberations.

OH and BTW I don't think all SA is paranoid, (inset here " I am not worthy-bowing person" picture) just work with ex SA and they've said the sense if personal security is low etc .

Hooly

BIB - The problem with his claim that he was so fearful of intruders is that not only did the DT fail to provide a shred of evidence to support that claim, there is evidence to the contrary.

- He lived in a highly secure, control-accessed gated community.

- The gated community has 24 hour roving security patrol.

- His house had an alarm system, including outside motion detector beams.

- He did not have burglar bars on the windows.

- One of his downstairs windows was broken, but he was never concerned enough to have it repaired.

- He slept with the balcony doors not only unlocked, but wide open.

- He did not check on or secure the workers' ladders before going to bed.

Under these conditions, do you honestly believe he was fearful of an intruder entering his home?
 
I made no comment about remorse. As far as I can see, Pistorius has shown none.

Yes, IMO it does make a difference that he is a celebrity. And while many people may not have known of him before the murder, they certainly do now. Were he not famous, the entire case would probably have gone unreported outside SA. (I don't think Reeva was famous enough outside SA for that to have been a factor.) Compare this. I know a man, a quiet chap who keeps himself to himself but always civil and friendly. Most people where I live know him because of the job he does. I think most of them are totally unaware that he is a convicted murderer, sentenced to life imprisonment as is the statutory sentence in the UK. He has been out on parole for many years. Someone as famous as OP would not be able to live like this fellow does, with hardly anyone knowing what he did in the past.

But he did serve a long jail sentence, I presume? .. so I don't really understand the comparison with that and with the notion that it wouldn't really matter too much if OP didn't get sentenced to a lengthy prison term because 'he has lost everything anyway' .. bottom line is, OP murdered Reeva in cold blood, he should serve a long prison sentence just like anyone else who has murdered.
 
Oscar Pistorius: Entitled. Narcissist. Sociopath?


While meaning well, I think OP’s parents inadvertently went overboard by instilling in him that he was not only “normal” but EXTRAORDINARY, even if they never used that word.

Prodded by his parents, he came to believe he could have and do and control not only anything he wanted, but EVERYTHING. He was not taught any limits or boundaries whatsoever. He was firmly indoctrinated to be a “winner” at all costs, even if his parents never directly stated it. I think poor Oscar got the idea if he didn’t always win, he was a failure on some level. His ego became over-inflated by his parents’ “I’m Superman!” guidance. I believe his parents not only taught him to compete but the unspoken message was WIN - somehow this became conflated with being normal.

OP grew up feeling ENTITLED to anything and everything simply because he was special amputee OP. While from babyhood he grew up knowing nothing but his prosthetics ("trauma", indeed lol), he also grew up knowing he was very different - SPECIAL.

He apparently had no problems defending himself, was reportedly very popular and I believe, grew to take inordinate pride in his profound uniqueness, his specialness. This sense of profound differentness, together with his competitive, aggressive, daredevil, adrenaline-junkie personality, evolved into an entrenched sense of superiority - I can never lose, I will never lose. Losing and failure were never options. His parents never allowed him to simply be ordinary. His sense of self, his ego is inextricably tied up with winning and dominating at all costs. Relentless and driven, he not only became “normal”, somewhere deep in his psyche, he became a demi-god. On some level, boosted by his parents’ mantras, this sense of rarified uniqueness fed his ego.

Ego demands control.
Ego demands entitlement.
Ego DEMANDS.

Unfortunately, his parents did not balance OP’s limitless ego and supreme self-confidence with a sense of humility, empathy or responsibility toward others. (In his mind, how could anyone else ever be equal to him, never mind be special or entitled, if they never had to overcome HIS physical challenges?) He was essentially taught - pushed - to TAKE everything he could. His parents were so busy pushing him they never stopped him. They never taught him that life and other people don’t always cooperate and submit; they never taught him that life is a game of negotiation, give and take, that it’s OK to sometimes lose. He was subconsciously taught to overcompensate in the bid to be “normal”. He was taught to be Superman but not Everyman (we’re all equal, we all have different challenges).

This is why I think OP suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, if not outright sociopathy. OP is the golden boy! OP always wins! No one limits OP! No one says no to OP! OP never backs down! OP never loses! (How exhausting it must be to continually have to prove oneself?)

During an intense argument with Reeva (one in which he very possibly was on the verge of her leaving him) he killed her in a blind, controlling, narcissistic rage. How dare she challenge him, how dare she try to leave HIM?!! Driven by his parents to CONTROL every aspect of his world to compensate for his disability - a world in which the word “no” was never an option - he was faced that night with utter loss of control, face to face with a woman who would not be controlled or dominated, i.e. abject humiliation. Possibly for the first time in his life. The blow to his unfettered ego was too much. What better way to stop her, to regain total control, total dominance than to kill her - silence her forever? In his eyes, Reeva’s autonomy, defiance and personal rejection were greater crimes than murder. In OP’s self-made universe, equilibrium was regained after the shooting; OP was once again in total control. He, alone, controlled his “version” of that night. Except this time, he wasn’t in control. The secret, the truth of that lethal fight will go to the grave with him. From that night forward, he has basically lost EVERYTHING. An extraordinary, tragic price to pay to maintain supreme ego.

While admirably trying hard to raise a self-confident child with a physical disability, his parents utterly failed to instill in him any sense of real-life limits or personal boundaries.

That failure became OP’s downfall - his most profound disability of all.
 
Well said, Lyra.

It’s not enough that he executed her - he has to blame her “silence” for her own death. The man is VILE.

Yes, it's incredible isn't it .. not only did he throw his mother, his defence team, and a few others under a bus, he even had to throw the woman he 'loved', and whose body he ripped to bits with 3 black talon bullets, under one as well .. exactly how much lower does it get?
 
It seems you agree that there are an abundance of evidence against him but this is just something to 'wade through'. However, why do we have to 'wade' through anything when you have all this combined with five witnesses testifying to a woman screaming. Do we wade through that too? Do we need ten witnesses? How thick does the evidence against him have to be until it's too impenetrable to wade through and we can declare his guilt? As I've said before, bar an eye-witness or a confession, it would be near impossible to find more evidence against him: lies, witnesses, impossibilities.

If I'm honest, I think this is most likely one of the easiest cases Masipa has probably judged. The difficulty for her will be articulating her judgement and reasons for it tightly as possible to bar any chance of appeal (which is why she's so adamant on OP getting the fairest trial possible).

BIB - Agreed. Circumstantial evidence requires some inference or reasoning in order to prove a fact. You have to use common sense and connect the dots.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we don't need DNA test results to prove it is, in fact, a duck.
 
BIB, Perhaps I wasn't clear in what I was trying to convey. I don't believe that OP should get away with murder. If the court does find him guilty of murder, then certainly he deserves to go to justice.

All I meant to say that was that we've seen time and time again where an accused murder walks free because of their celebrity status or a technicality. When this occurs, life tends to find a way to dole out justice and while he may not be in jail, he face justice from civil society.

In terms of him losing everything, yes he hasn't lost his life like Reeva, but he has lost everything that was dear to him including is fame, his sponsorships, relationships. His life will never be the same as a result of this.

BIB1 - Not comparable in the slightest.

BIB2 - Nor should it be.
 
I made no comment about remorse. As far as I can see, Pistorius has shown none.

Yes, IMO it does make a difference that he is a celebrity. And while many people may not have known of him before the murder, they certainly do now. Were he not famous, the entire case would probably have gone unreported outside SA. (I don't think Reeva was famous enough outside SA for that to have been a factor.) Compare this. I know a man, a quiet chap who keeps himself to himself but always civil and friendly. Most people where I live know him because of the job he does. I think most of them are totally unaware that he is a convicted murderer, sentenced to life imprisonment as is the statutory sentence in the UK. He has been out on parole for many years. Someone as famous as OP would not be able to live like this fellow does, with hardly anyone knowing what he did in the past.

Bib1 - didn't say you did.

Bib2 - good.

I think there's a very high ceiling of the limit of justice murderers deserves and because this quiet chap of yours seems to suffer less in your eyes as OP would, that elicits only more satisfaction, not sympathy.
 
Defense could totally win this case if it wasn’t for their guilty-as-six-kinds-of-sin Client From Hell. :D
 
I don't read it that way and certainly don't find it offensive. My understanding is that vansleuths is speculating on how Pistorius himself views it - seeing it from inside his head, as it were.

Let me try and put it another way. If he does get away with it (to any degree), he will have lost far more than the average person would, because he had more to lose. That won't be adequate punishment, of course, but his life as he knew it is over whatever happens.

BIB - Perhaps career-wise, but he will be a free man. And if his attendance and behavior at that night club the other night is any indication, he does not view his life, as he knew it, over.
 
But he did serve a long jail sentence, I presume? .. so I don't really understand the comparison with that and with the notion that it wouldn't really matter too much if OP didn't get sentenced to a lengthy prison term because 'he has lost everything anyway' .. bottom line is, OP murdered Reeva in cold blood, he should serve a long prison sentence just like anyone else who has murdered.

BIB

I don't think Cherwell's comments above were to suggest that OP doesn't deserve a lengthy prison term. I'm not suggesting that as well.

In fact, if he is found guilty of murder, he should get the mandatory SA 15 year prison term and if it is premeditated, then he should get the 25 year term. There is no argument on this point.

All I'm trying to say and I think this is Cherwell's point as well is that regardless of what the outcome is of this case, OP's life will never be the same.

If for whatever reason he was acquitted of all charges, I'm sure his uncle will get him a job in one of the company businesses and he will be well settled and perhaps even settle down and start a family. But, he will never have a normal life again as most people would in this situation believe that he evaded justice. I don't believe he would be happy with a desk job either considering he wanted to start his own foundation after his track career....he's lost his fame, notoriety and money, things that were dear to him.

And yes, I'm not saying that this compares in any way to what Reeva went through or her family is still going through.
 
Whether or not the sentences run concurrently, I fail to see why he should be granted bail if convicted of a crime for which he wasn't given leave to appeal.

Hypothetical, as I sadly believe that strings will continue to be pulled for Pistorius whatever Judge Masipa decides.

Take heart, Cherwell! Judge Masipa is no bleeding-heart lightweight.

Anti-violence against women is a very special interest she holds dear.

She recently sentenced a serial rapist to 252 years in prison and a life sentence to a wife-killer.
 
Well it's offensive to me and your point is based on the premise that being a celebrity, with fame and fortune gives you 'more' in life than the average person. Plus, I don't see any sincere remorse in OP. Anyway, each their own.

Unfortunately, when you are a celebrity with fame and fortune, you do get more in life. It may not be fair, but it's the reality of life. That's why we see fewer celebrities in prisons but our prisons are overcrowded by poor minorities who were defended by a public servant. I'd love the system to change so that everyone received the same justice.

I remember a book that I read when I was in school called Animal Farm and there was a phrase in there which never left my mind...."All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal then others."
 
BIB

I don't think Cherwell's comments above were to suggest that OP doesn't deserve a lengthy prison term. I'm not suggesting that as well.

In fact, if he is found guilty of murder, he should get the mandatory SA 15 year prison term and if it is premeditated, then he should get the 25 year term. There is no argument on this point.

All I'm trying to say and I think this is Cherwell's point as well is that regardless of what the outcome is of this case, OP's life will never be the same.

If for whatever reason he was acquitted of all charges, I'm sure his uncle will get him a job in one of the company businesses and he will be well settled and perhaps even settle down and start a family. But, he will never have a normal life again as most people would in this situation believe that he evaded justice. I don't believe he would be happy with a desk job either considering he wanted to start his own foundation after his track career....he's lost his fame, notoriety and money, things that were dear to him.

And yes, I'm not saying that this compares in any way to what Reeva went through or her family is still going through.

But you are still talking about him being acquitted .. why should he be? It's so clear and obvious that he killed Reeva intentionally, an acqittal just shouldn't even enter into the equation.
 
But he did serve a long jail sentence, I presume? .. so I don't really understand the comparison with that and with the notion that it wouldn't really matter too much if OP didn't get sentenced to a lengthy prison term because 'he has lost everything anyway' .. bottom line is, OP murdered Reeva in cold blood, he should serve a long prison sentence just like anyone else who has murdered.

Jay-jay, I don't think anyone suggested that "it wouldn't really matter too much" if Pistorius escapes jail. I will be utterly furious if that happens. The only thing to take comfort from in that eventuality is that everybody knows who he is and what he has done - and the despicable way he has behaved trying to save his own rotten skin. With feelings running high, who knows what might happen. Wherever he goes, he risks meeting somebody who might stick the knife in - so to speak.

The point about my acquaintance (yes, he did do a few years inside, not what most people tend to expect from a "life sentence" though) is that he is an anonymous joe who could start again in a new community without any of his neighbours knowing what he'd done. That's impossible for OP.
 
... life tends to find a way to dole out justice and while he may not be in jail, he face justice from civil society.

Wouldn't it be bitterly ironic (Mistress Karma and her wicked sense of humor) if OP lost his life at the hands of someone with anger and control issues? I think sometimes only his fame and fortune (and dumb luck) have kept him alive this long, considering his ever-growing roster of social sins...and enemies. Not to mention his adrenaline-junkie, death-wish lifestyle.

The dodgy, downright dangerous "associates" he now chooses to hang out with will not be good for his future.

Then again, he'll probably see those same dodgy, downright dangerous "associates" in prison. LOL
 
Unfortunately, when you are a celebrity with fame and fortune, you do get more in life. It may not be fair, but it's the reality of life. That's why we see fewer celebrities in prisons but our prisons are overcrowded by poor minorities who were defended by a public servant. I'd love the system to change so that everyone received the same justice.

I remember a book that I read when I was in school called Animal Farm and there was a phrase in there which never left my mind...."All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal then others."

As I've mentioned before, the tide is turning here in the UK and celebrities such as Rolf Harris and Stuart Hall are now being taken to task for their past misdeeds .. sadly too late for Jimmy Savile to receive the same treatment, but after operation Yewtree, things have now changed and criminals will no longer be able to hide behind their celebrity status here in the UK, and hopefully this now start to be replicated around the world ... the times, they are a changing ....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
111
Guests online
1,802
Total visitors
1,913

Forum statistics

Threads
600,787
Messages
18,113,564
Members
230,990
Latest member
DeeKay
Back
Top