Trial Discussion Thread #48

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Greater Than said:
I read an interesting perspective from a firearm instructor who said OP's story of firing one-handed in the dark doesn't match the shot pattern on the door. The first problem he said is being able to control muzzle flip when firing accurate shots in rapid succession. He said it takes a lot of practice and once the skill is acquired, you can shoot rapid accurate shots with about one second between them.

Now, with the type of ammo OP used, he said there is more charge behind the bullet so it requires more firing pressure, which results in more recoil and muzzle flip. With the shots all being relatively the same height, he said this means the shots were controlled and deliberate, and suggests the shots were no less than one second apart from each other. On top of that, he said firing with one hand requires even more time between the shots to control recoil and muzzle flip in order to accurately shoot the target in the same area.

He went on to explain the problem with OP's claim of the bathroom being dark. He said that he himself has participated in night shoot competitions and the muzzle flash of first shot unequivocally destroys your night vision. He said to be able to accurately fire the subsequent shots in the same area takes an inordinate amount of practice.

As an experienced instructor, he said the shot pattern on the door just doesn't match up to an unbalanced, one-handed shooter, who is firing in rapid succession, the dark, with powerful ammo.
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Interesting info. Thanks for posting it. I agree with Cherwell...this instructor would have been a helpful & enlightening witness.
 
Where can I find more info about this net/phone activity around 1am? Links to either youtube/pics/thread posts much appreciated! And do we know this is more than just a quick automatic update or email retrieval? My Gmail app does that every 15mins or so as well as other apps I'm sure.
 
808 said:
Not being an expert I would say that the womanly screaming has been debunked because even the defence witnesses said a man screaming.
The ear witnesses in totality have cut that line of defence out and Oscar himself with his feeble scream "Get the F out of my house!" on the stand.

The tampering has been deftly skewered by Nel when he pointed out the duvet blood spatter and the forensics guys showed the void created by the magazine rack. While there might have been a power board used to charge a camera or watch missing I think anything of import has been shown not to have been moved or tampered with to "frame" OP and screw up his defence.. The photos of the scene were locked in within hours of the crime not to be tailored by the state later. MOO
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Great post, 808. Indeed, the defense is hanging on by a very slender thread...and it's fraying. :)
 
liesbeth said:
Yes. Also...if Oscar broke the upper part of the door with the bat (but not the lower panels) at about 03:00 am it would explain a lot of things:

a) The muted light that Mrs Stipp saw through the toilet cubicle's window,
b) the fact that the screams from the cubicle was heard by the Stipps and Burger and Johnson,
c) the escalating intensity of the screams before the shots means Reeva saw him with the gun and
d) this also explains her defensive position (why would she try to defend herself with her arms lifted to her head if she couldn't see Oscar with the gun?)
e) and the fact that she was standing upright (with arms lifted?) in front of the door when the first bullet hit her in the hip. Lastly it makes sense that
e) the crack that runs through the bullet hole on the lower panel was made when he used his hands (as he testified) to tear open the panels.

The most horrifying thing of all is that Reeva must have seen OP with the gun. It's the only thing that explains the light, the audible screams escalating in intensity, her upright position with hands lifted to protect her face.
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Your theory is fascinating and imo very plausible... I'm amazed that you were able to come up with a new THIRD BAT/GUN THEORY this late in the case. And I love that you came up with it a week BEFORE we hear Nel's Closing Arguments. It will be very interesting to see if the PT is thinking the same way... <see smiley of fox hitting print button>
 
4MrsB said:
I believe "a big deal" was made of it, most likely before trial started or in the judge's chambers. Nel would not be ok with any of this crap.

I also believe it was NOT OK for OP or family/friend to remove the phone from the crime scene. Aimee had to ask permission from the detectives on the scene to remove a spare set of clothes for Oscar. And those items were all logged & approved before leaving house. That phone was deliberately removed by someone for OP and they didn't ask if it was OK to remove it from the crime scene.

With regards to how long it takes to delete/tamper with phone data.. I have no idea. I just know to do it "correctly" with no trace left behind you need to find a knowledgeable individual or company who is willing to "illegally" perform this feat. (I say "illegally" because tampering with evidence from a murder is against the law in most countries.) I would imagine it takes some time to connect with these "knowledgable & talented" folks. That is what would contribute to the lengthy timeframe before being returned, IMO.

I don't agree that just because Moller or whoever didn't discover there was a missing phone until a little later, that it takes OP/family off the hook for hanging onto it & removing it in the first place.

We will have to disagree on this matter. I see no other reason for phone being removed & held onto for 11 days. However, I do appreciate all the detail regarding timelines for Moller/paperwork/Vodacom, etc. Very interesting (were in the world do you locate all these details?).
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LOL&#8230; I don't believe we have to agree to disagree at all&#8230; in fact, I agree with most of what you wrote

I was simply explaining that the 11 days might have another explanation behind them, i.e. investigation, judicial bureaucracy, large company bureaucracy, legal bureaucracy, etc&#8230;

Totally agree on the following :

- Not OK to remove the phone without specific consent from Police (playing Devil's advocate, perhaps it was given since the phone was in plain sight in the kitchen and in the same way the .38 bullets were initially allowed to be removed with Police consent)

- Yes, finding the right 'wrong' people to tamper with evidence from a very public and high profile murder investigation surely takes some doing and time.

- Yes, OP/family are definitely NOT off the hook for taking the phone and hanging on to it (unless a Police officer indicated it was OK at the time)

The point I do not automatically agree with is that a "big deal" was necessarily made about the missing phone at the Trial&#8230; we have absolutely NO evidence of that having happened or even signs about it.

The phone was recovered at the bail hearing more than 1 year before the Trial started.

In a Trial before Judge only, there is NO reason to prohibit the State from broaching a subject such as the absconded phone&#8230; in a Trial by Jury, it's another matter as the Defence may object on the basis of it being prejudicial.

Moller performed 3 separate extractions on that phone and had the assistance of Apple-USA&#8230; but not a hint of possible tampering was even suggested at Trial.

Finally, the question remains : What could have OP wanted/needed to remove/tamper on his phone ? What could this Data-X be ?

The detailed billing from Vodacom cannot be tampered with&#8230; so all the phone calls and SMS are off the table

Remains social media data&#8230; like Whatsapp

The thing about Whatsapp is that all the messages (sent and received) are stored in 3 locations : the sender's phone, the server and the recipient's phone.

Accessing the server data can be problematic.

But the Data-X cannot be a message from or to Reeva&#8230; because the police have Reeva's phone&#8230; so tampering on these messages on OP's phone would immediately be apparent to investigators.

I invite any and all posters to speculate on what this Data-X could be and share it with the rest of us.

I would suggest the following categories :

- Data-X could disprove or discredit OP's mistaken identity intruder story/timeline.
- Data-X could prove or reinforce the State's case for murder with intent.
- Data-X could provide a clear motive for OP wanting to kill Reeva.
 
... When asked what else he did not remember, he said: "Reeva speaking to me as I sat up in bed... it would be phoning Mr Baba [security guard] which I don't remember."

Pistorius said for purposes of the bail application his defence did not put in all the details he had given to them.

Nel asked: "Nothing that's in the bail application is untrue?"

Pistorius said it was all the truth and he had not changed his version since then.

Nel: "Your evidence in court was also true?"

Pistorius replied: "That is correct My Lady."

...

"I wasn't there when my statement got drawn up. I wasn't the one who drew it up. My counsel advised me that it doesn't have to be an exhaustive set of facts," he said.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/O...d-bail-application-a-couple-of-times-20140409


WTF??? He doesn’t remember Reeva speaking to him in bed?* HE’s the one who testified she spoke to him in bed! He “doesn’t remember” because it NEVER happened. And of course he “doesn’t remember” phoning security - he did NOT want to talk to them.

So, his bail application is “true”.
His testimony is “true”.
Every word out of his mouth is “true”.

Well ... all except for the lies, omissions and half-truths.

And once again, Oz’s old standby, blame his own defense team for a shoddy bail application - I’M TOTALLY INNOCENT! IT’S ALL THEIR FAULT!

But he did SIGN the freaking thing.
That means he read, understood and approved.

He really, truly is a sniveling weasel.


* (How did I miss this?!) Has anyone got a handy video link to this portion of his testimony? Thanks. :)
 
Data X.....is a red heroin
I think paramorma and just checking nothing bad is on that phone... He obviously had doubt 11 days of checking says something, but alas nothing on that phone did him damage so I guess it was checked and checked again to make sure then handed back
The lack of tampering is evidence enough that nothing is amiss on that phone, except for the fact that he and all his money had 11 days to verify its OK to hand back other wise it would have remained missing to this day
 
liesbeth said:
Thank you. A broken door also explains the grouping of the shots.

For the last two shots the pistol was under control. Roger Dixon said that OP must have had line-of-sight (aiming with his eye, the pistol and target in line) for the last two shots. So Oscar brought the pistol down and controlled it. He aimed. At what? Why aim if he couldn't see what was behind the door?
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Certainly makes you wonder - and the implications are truly horrific.


On another note, Oscar may well be brought down by &#8216;The Rock Guy&#8217; aka Roger Dixon, The NON-Expert &#8220;Expert&#8221;!

I tell you, Karma has a wicked sense of humor.

I think Roux has a wicked sense of humor, too - just look at the witnesses and experts he brought forth (the ones he could actually manage to wrangle into court!)
To be fair, I think Roux should at least give poor Oscar a partial refund on his attorney&#8217;s fees.

Nah. Scratch that.

Roux should send Oz a hefty invoice just for putting up with his sorry, weasely sh#t.

Oh, yeah, and another invoice-from-hell for throwing him and his entire defense team under the bus during testimony.)
 
Ncl1968 said:
Data X.....is a red heroin
I think paramorma and just checking nothing bad is on that phone... He obviously had doubt 11 days of checking says something, but alas nothing on that phone did him damage so I guess it was checked and checked again to make sure then handed back
The lack of tampering is evidence enough that nothing is amiss on that phone, except for the fact that he and all his money had 11 days to verify its OK to hand back other wise it would have remained missing to this day
Click to expand...

I would tend to agree

To elaborate on the missing phone :

- Moller received from Hilton Botha the 4 phones on Friday 15 February

- On 19 February in the afternoon, Moller informs Hilton Botha that the 0020 phone is missing


OP was in police custody from 14 February until 22 February

OP's bail hearing was from 19 February until 22 February when he was released on bail.


On 20 February Roux stated at the bail hearing that Defence was in possession of a fifth phone that had been used.


I seriously doubt that Roux would admit being in possession of evidence whilst tampering with its content&#8230;

Also there would be no guarantee that :

- The tampering would be completely invisible to experts, specialized software and Apple-USA

- The individual asked to do the tampering would not blow the whistle before or after doing the tampering

&#8230; so doing the tampering would be EXTREMELY RISKY not only for OP but also Roux

In fact it would be much easier and much safer by far to simply destroy the phone and allege that it was probably lost/stolen/misplaced by Police and that its whereabouts are unknown to the Defence and OP.

OP could not be blamed for the missing 0020 phone since he left the house in Police custody and was in jail from 14 February to 22 February.

Finally, NONE of the content of OP's 4949 and 0020 iPhones was used by either PT or DT at Trial&#8230; the only thing used was the detailed billing and the content of Reeva's 5353 iPhone.
 
Cherwell said:
Never heard a mention of the people who live directly opposite. Perhaps they weren't there that night.

Does anybody else find OP's house incredibly ugly? I find it hard to imagine somebody deliberately designing such a heap. If these houses were toys or models, OP's looks like somebody accidentally stepped on it.
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I think it looks pretty cool myself.
 
eimajjjj said:
If you think about it, EVDM's evidence is probably even more damning than the Stipps' and Burgers'. With the latter, the defence can try their 'man-screams-like-a-woman' absurdity but with EVDM, if there was no evidence of anyone else in that vicinity arguing at 1 in the morning, then it has to be attributed to OP if you take into the totality of the PT's case. The defence have only two options with this evidence: prove EVDM was delusional that night or prove there were other people arguing. They have done neither.
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Starting at 1:56 am to be exact. Yes, you would think Roux and Crew (Croux?) would have scoured the area, hoping to find some resident who had a hissy fit at that hour. Unfortunately for OP, everyone else was snoring at Sleepywoods Estates. Roux tried some experiments to show EVDM could not have heard what she said she did, but Nel asked her if she had heard any other similar ruckus around those parts recently, and indeed she had - two male voices, the ones Roux put out front of OP's place to argue or otherwise make themselves annoying. Funny, we never heard much about that again. The only blemish in EVDM's testimony is the security gang who said they passed by the area at 2:20 am and heard nothing. But that's not much of a problem for EVDM's testimony really. (I wish Nel had asked her if she had ever, in her years in that house, heard any arguing whatsoever of that kind in the wee hours before 14 February 2013. Nel missed a lot of chances actually.)
 
Like Jay-jay, I’ve been the victim of domestic abuse (I was very young, long ago).

I’ve been slapped, choked, punched, thrown to the ground, hair viciously pulled, objects thrown at me.

Verbal, mental, physical violence.

Fear so bad I couldn’t stop shaking.

All these many years later, I still have (minor) PTSD if I experience certain specific triggers, i.e. certain songs.

Several times I thought he might kill me and I screamed/fought/fled but it never got to the point of “blood-curdling screams” - he never actually tried to kill me. Eventually, had I stayed, he very likely might have done so.

Even with my dark, very painful experiences of abuse, I know I can never truly imagine the sheer terror Reeva must have felt in that tiny, dark toilet - trapped.

Death screams are like no other. Five witnesses cannot all be wrong.

The psychological terror is the worst ... never knowing what sets them off, what makes them “snap”.

Everything.

Nothing.

Physical wounds heal - the psyche doesn’t.

Time does not heal those kinds of wounds.

You just learn to go forward.
 
Aside from Reeva never coming back, the worst part is we’ll never, ever know the truth of that night.
 
kittychi said:
There are elements that appeal to me because I like contemporary architecture, but to me that house looks extremely austere and institutional, both in design and interior furnishings.
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Literally everything in his spartan, cold-looking house appeared to be some shade of beige/tan and white with touches of black. (Even his dogs are tan and white/black!)

Wonder what a color analyst and/or docs at Westkoppies would have to say about that?* LOL I find stuff like that fascinating. Yeah, I'm weird. :D

* I'm not so friggin sure about those Westkoppies docs and their "report". (Seems like they really missed a big one with OP.) I'd just as soon pick the finest sleuth-y, analytical brains here!
 
Roux kind of muddied the waters with bathroom lights not working. I've never been quite clear on this point.

Could someone confirm:

1. Was the light in the bathroom on or off?
2. Was the light in the WC where Reeva was on or off?

Thank you
 
AJ_DS said:
I would tend to agree

To elaborate on the missing phone :

- Moller received from Hilton Botha the 4 phones on Friday 15 February

- On 19 February in the afternoon, Moller informs Hilton Botha that the 0020 phone is missing


OP was in police custody from 14 February until 22 February

OP's bail hearing was from 19 February until 22 February when he was released on bail.


On 20 February Roux stated at the bail hearing that Defence was in possession of a fifth phone that had been used.


I seriously doubt that Roux would admit being in possession of evidence whilst tampering with its content&#8230;

Also there would be no guarantee that :

- The tampering would be completely invisible to experts, specialized software and Apple-USA

- The individual asked to do the tampering would not blow the whistle before or after doing the tampering

&#8230; so doing the tampering would be EXTREMELY RISKY not only for OP but also Roux

In fact it would be much easier and much safer by far to simply destroy the phone and allege that it was probably lost/stolen/misplaced by Police and that its whereabouts are unknown to the Defence and OP.

OP could not be blamed for the missing 0020 phone since he left the house in Police custody and was in jail from 14 February to 22 February.

Finally, NONE of the content of OP's 4949 and 0020 iPhones was used by either PT or DT at Trial&#8230; the only thing used was the detailed billing and the content of Reeva's 5353 iPhone.
Click to expand...

As I previously noted in an earlier post, OP's brother is/was probably quite capable of assisting with the cell phone "inspection" so yes the six days before the DT revealed they had it was probably enough time to do whatever they needed to do with it. Also, someone had mentioned there was a time limit on how long things are stored on databases(subject of course to maintenance downtimes that often delete all backup data so as not to interfere with new patches etc) so whether some of the data could have been successfully scrubbed can also not be disregarded. As for getting rid of the phone, I doubt whether the DT would have thought that would be a good idea since wasn't that the phone that had been used for all the post killing calls, some apparently made by CS? As long as they could ensure there wasn't anything "bad" saved on it, ie pics, chat logs, videos, then I'm sure they thought it could only help their case what with the call to Netcare verified on it...

Edit: Oh yea, almost forgot, would any of the whatsapp messages been admissable if the phone had gone missing?
 
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