Trial Discussion Thread #51 - 14.11.9, Day 41 ~announcement of the verdict~

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KarenUK said:
I gave her the benefit of the doubt.... One of the key statements from her was whenshe allowed his psychiatric referral to be as an outpatient so not "to punish the accused twice".
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This verdict is like killing Reeva twice IMO
 
KarenUK said:
I dont think she misunderstood anything... She believes OP's account (despite the doubts she expressed over his testimony). Poor Oscar cried and seemed resmorseful - he is a middle class boy, what harm could be be?
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Except most middle class boys I know don't have a habit of firing weapons haphazardly whenever they get the urge. [modsnip] His temperament alone makes him a human cannon. The fact that he killed someone is proof. Unbelievable!
[modsnip]
 
Zuri said:
Very well written. While I am not totally clear as to the rationale of the Judge's decision, she has had the input of the other assistants as well. It would be hypocritical of me to bash the Judge as I was impressed with her all along. I don't believe she has been bribed. I am waiting until the ruling is completed. I am sending prayers of strength to Reeva's family. Reeva will not be forgotten and will be remembered in many peoples' hearts. JMV
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I am still unclear as to how much input the two assistants bring to bear on the decision of the judge. Today they mentioned that the male assistant is rather new to the position. Does anyone really think a new young assistant is going to sit there and argue with the more experienced judge? I don't think so.

I have not been particularly impressed or unimpressed by the judge all along.

I realize that the judge gets to make the decision. But you know what, plenty of judges have "gotten things wrong" over the years. That's what appeals courts are all about and yes, sometimes a higher court rules that a lower court made an error. I do not know if that has happened here, but I am confident that Mr. Nel will know and that he will act accordingly if he feels a legal error has been made by this judge.
 
AJ_DS said:
With Masipa's selective and creative interpretation of the evidence, one thing stands out as being a BIG problem…

- Masipa decided the bat strikes were the second set of bangs

- Masipa decided the bat strikes occurred moments after 3:17

… this means the gunshots were the first set of bangs and were heard ONLY by the Stipps

- Annette said that she heard the first shots around 3:02AM
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It is not clear on what ground did she discount this part (bangs at 3:02 according to her clock that was 3 min fast, followed by screams shortly after) of Ms Stipp's evidence.
 
Really? said:
Hehe, right?..... I am no swamee(sp)..... But I see a déjà vu .... Another OJ.

He will be incarcerated eventually. moo
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Hang in there Really! Up to 15 years for CH and another 15 for the weapons charges. The glass is half full. Mañana baby! :smile:
 
PrimeSuspect said:
Pretoria - Lawyers and legal academics expressed surprise at the dismissal of murder charges against Oscar Pistorius on Thursday, with critics saying Judge Thokozile Masipa had been too lenient.

"I'm shocked," said criminal lawyer Martin Hood, after Masipa said the prosecution had not made the case for murder or premeditated murder.

"I think she's going to get quite a lot of criticism from the judiciary and the legal system," said the Johannesburg-based lawyer.

"The consensus is that she hasn't got it right."

"The consensus among the legal community was that he is guilty of murder. This could really open the door to systematic abuse of our legal system by people who shoot their partners and claim self-defence."


James Grant, Wits University criminal law professor James Grant noted the State could appeal if they believe there has been an legal error.

"Masipa doesn't accept that accused intended to kill anyone. Huh? His defence was he didn't intend to UNLAWFULLY kill," he tweeted.

"How can you voluntarily fire four shots into a toilet cubicle & not foresee the possibility of killing whoever was in there."

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/O...hocked-surprised-by-Masipas-judgment-20140911
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Where I am confounded in the Judge's thinking at this point, is the firing of a gun into a small space and not expect whatever was on the other side of a closed door, would not sustain injury or death.
 
PrimeSuspect said:
I'm with you, J Masipa always made me nervous but we put our faith in her and look where it got us. She's bought OP's story lock, stock and barrel and even agreed that everyone is lying. :(
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I simply can't understand it - she must have a figurative gun to her head.
At least with OJ and KC no one could be 100 percent sure they were the only ones nearby the victims.
Only Oscar was present when Reeva was shot down, multiple times, in cold blood - the intruder is fiction and no one believes there was one, not ever Oscar(liar).
 
Zuri said:
Very well written. While I am not totally clear as to the rationale of the Judge's decision, she has had the input of the other assistants as well. It would be hypocritical of me to bash the Judge as I was impressed with her all along. I don't believe she has been bribed. I am waiting until the ruling is completed. I am sending prayers of strength to Reeva's family. Reeva will not be forgotten and will be remembered in many peoples' hearts. JMV
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Sorry, you guys are right. I shouldn't have bashed Masipa that way. I wrote that in the heat of the moment and should have given my post more thought. My apologies!
 
From the above posted article:

"So why did Judge Masipa, you might wonder, think the requirements of dolus eventualis was not met? Here it gets embarrassing I'm afraid. This test in law is a subjective one. We have to ask what Pistorius was thinking. Pistorius told us he thought Steenkamp was asleep in bed. Judge Masipa believes him and takes this as proof that Pistorius did not desire the death of someone behind that bathroom door.

But that is blatantly a misapplication of the law. Who cares if Pistorius sincerely believed Steenkamp was in the bedroom fast asleep? The question is whether he foresaw any human being behind that door - Xolani or Piet or Marita or nameless intruder - dying if he were to shoot at them through that door four times? So it's not legally relevant that Pistorius genuinely didn't think Steenkamp was in the bathroom. The murder charge holds so long as he believed SOMEONE was there, foresaw that four shots in that direction could kill them and reconciled himself to that outcome. And he did.

It gets worse: Pistorius' defence is that he intentionally shot at the door to neutralise a perceived threat. He just didn't think his voluntary shooting was unlawful. But by the standards of dolus eventualis, properly applied, he committed murder in South African law.

Nel can start filing his appeal papers. His prospects are surely good. Judge Masipa won't be the last judge to have a verdict overturned."


Perhaps the above is why the afternoon session was so brief?
 
Viper said:
Hang in there Really! Up to 15 years for CH and another 15 for the weapons charges. The glass is half full. Mañana baby! :smile:
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I wonder if judge took a break to monitor public reactions....
 
AlwaysShocked said:
My sympathy goes not only to Reeva's family but also to the general public in South Africa. Supposedly the decision to televise this trial was based on wanting the people to see that there is justice within the South African court system? And then they get THIS?
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I hope South Africans watched and were proud of their judicial system (though I know at least the speed of this trial is atypical). I've admired a great many aspects of how this trial was conducted.

Here or there, nobody ever "wins" a murder trial and the victim is always still dead no matter the verdict. Its always sad.
 
Confusion over verdict

In finding Pistorius to be negligent, Judge Masipa appeared to suggest that he foresaw consequences of firing shots though the door - which would contradict her earlier ruling against 'dolus eventualis', or murder without premeditation. The decision seems to rest on the difference between 'did' foresee the consequences of firing through the door, and 'should have' forseen the consequences.

The prior would involve a charge of murder and the second a charge of culpable homicide, which she will rule on tomorrow.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/11087281/Oscar-Pistorius-verdict-live.html
 
4MrsB said:
Someone posted that a journalist tweeted that Nel was going to file an appeal based on Judge M's understanding of dolus eventualis (reason for delay in chambers after lunch).

IF THIS WERE TO BE TRUE (big "if"), perhaps Judge M cut end of day short to confer with accessors before handing out sentence. MAYBE ("fingers crossed") she wants to readdress the length of sentence she is going to hand out for CH, after giving some consideration to what Nel has just argued in chambers. Maybe she will add more prison time to what they originally agreed on before this morning. Of course I'm just wildly speculating, but one can hope!)
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I will be shocked if there is any actual prison time...just don't think she will do it...too much pressure not to.
 
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