Trial Discussion Thread #58 - 14.17.10, Day 47 ~ sentencing~

[jilly]

~snipped~

BIB - swearing to tell the truth, and then saying "I'll try not to lie"! I thought that was the strangest thing to say. It's as if lying is such a part of who he is, that he has to make a conscious effort not to do it, not that that worked too well for him. I agree with you that he's unable to show remorse for events which didn't happen. On Friday, when Roux was painting a picture of a broken man who had nothing left, OP was blubbering away at this 'tragic' image of himself, and then, like you said, as soon as Nel got onto the subject of Reeva's painful death, and how her family was broken, he lost interest. I think he may even have been playing with his phone. And when Kim was talking, I barely recall him glancing up.

Nel told Masipa that this was negligence bordering on intent. I hope she takes that into account when deciding on a punishment. To let him loose with all the anger issues he has is quite dangerous, in my opinion. Since he doesn't really see any of this as his fault, he will seethe over the 'unfairness' of it all (remember him little black book of journalists who have been negative about him?), and he'll need some way to unleash all that anger. He had a short fuse when he was rich and successful. How much shorter will it be now?

:goodpost:

 

[jilly]

I have wondered that as well.

If OP is sent to prison, maybe we are more likely to hear stories from ex's or previous friends, athletes, etc about "OP stories". But I would imagine if he is not sent behind bars, many will remain keeping quiet for fear of the wrath of OP and the Pistorius family, fear of a lawsuit from "deep pocket" Uncle Arnold, etc.

I am hoping one day Nel (once retired or if ever moves over to private practice) writes a book. He, I believe, would have some very interesting tidbits of information about the evidence that was not allowed in, the arguments held in front of the Judge but in the privacy of her chambers or plain old evidence he had & felt 99% certain of what it pointed to - but knew he couldn't submit it for one reason or another.

I would definitely purchase that book if ever printed.

Me too!

 

[soozieqtips]

Does anyone know how long the sentencing part takes? Does Masipa just sit down and hand down the sentence, or does she give reasons for her decision? Saying "You have to do some light dusting" would only take a few seconds.

 

[vansleuths]

Does anyone know how long the sentencing part takes? Does Masipa just sit down and hand down the sentence, or does she give reasons for her decision? Saying "You have to do some light dusting" would only take a few seconds.

I don't think it will take long but it won't be a 5 minute affair. Things seem to always get drawn out in court, she'll probably have to explain her reasons for whatever sentence she gives and will need to back it up with case law.

I have a feeling that Nel has done enough to get the 10 year sentence he is looking for. Masipa specifically asked how many years the PT wants. The question reminded me a little about when she took interest in the PT's view on the psychological assessment. She also did clarify with the DT that the bench in OP's bathroom is not the same as rails.

He's going to jail, at least for a little while!

 

[vanatos]

I personally find it surreal that Roux spends so much time arguing how Pistorius lost sponsor's.

Like really? why would you focus on something that pretty much says 'he is super rich, he is now simply less so'.

 

[OZe]

OZe, with this post, for me, you are the cherry on the cake (like we say in french).
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for this incredible post.
You didn't thank me, fortunately!!! Neither neglected me by not mentionning me. Even if I am here since april, I didn't contribute. I couldn't. For several reasons but mainly because I'm an ignorant person in what concerns law and beside this, I don't have the faculty to express myself in a concise way.
But the people here are amazing concerning the knowledge they have and the way they share it.
I feel so happy to experience that there are such dedicated people, with passion for humanity and justice and a great sense of humour - I would never have been able to express this in the adequate words like you did it.
Thank YOU.
Thanks to ALL of you.

Thank you, Chéri

Like you, I was moved to write by the sense of community on this board. A community centred on a deeply-held passion for justice and humanity for a victim who has had so little voice of her own. It's no wonder Nel has so much support, here. He has not let the world forget who this trial is really about. Despite (or perhaps because of) his ferocious questioning, there is an unmistakable air of human decency about the man; someone driven by a more noble purpose than wealth or fame. When he envelops himself in that long black cape I could swear we're looking at the true Batman.

 

[soozieqtips]

Shouldn't Masipa disregard all Maringa's testimony, seeing as he based it on the Tasha's incident?

 

[soozieqtips]

I personally find it surreal that Roux spends so much time arguing how Pistorius lost sponsor's.

Like really? why would you focus on something that pretty much says 'he is super rich, he is now simply less so'.

I agree. He made it about money. Maybe it was to highlight how charitable and humble OP was for selling his car and offering the money to Reeva's parents. It was pretty much about how he'd lost sponsors and couldn't make millions. As Nel correctly pointed out (love him!), that cannot be an argument for not sending him to prison.

 

[JudgeJudi]

For those who are interested in all the ins and outs of the appeal process, this covers pretty much all you’ll want to know, and it’s easy to read.

“Legal City is South Africa’s premier online legal services portal”.

Scroll down to Grounds for Appeal

And then continue reading ...

Appeals from the Supreme Court.

http://www.legalcity.net/Index.cfm?fuseaction=about.us

 

[vansleuths]

I agree. He made it about money. Maybe it was to highlight how charitable and humble OP was for selling his car and offering the money to Reeva's parents. It was pretty much about how he'd lost sponsors and couldn't make millions. As Nel correctly pointed out (love him!), that cannot be an argument for not sending him to prison.

This portion of the case is all about mitigation of sentence. What points can Roux bring up to show that OP has suffered losses that deserve consideration for mitigation. Unlike Reeva, OP hasn't lost his life, so Roux can only say OP has personally lost his money, homes, friends, reputation, career, etc.

These losses are all the results of his own actions that night, but they are still losses that can be highlighted

 

[JudgeJudi]

I’ve never had a good rant before so I apologize in advance but I just have to do it on two especially telling points.

1) KP (Killer Pistorius) testified that it was him screaming non-stop for 15 minutes before the shooting but after he entered the toilet and saw Reeva on the floor, he stopped screaming. Nel asked him … paraphrasing … “Why? Wouldn’t that be the time you would have screamed?” and KP replied, “Why, what was the point?” If ever, ever an innocent person was going to scream that he’d mistakenly killed the one he loved, this would be the precise moment where you’d start and never stop.

2) When Kim Martin gave her moving testimony, many people in the gallery started crying, including journalists. Sam Taylor cried too, and Reeva had been her rival. Nel’s voice actually broke. What did OP do, nothing, he just looked down.

For a person who can cry:

• when he’s asked to look at a photo of Reeva’s head and crime scene photos that he’s probably seen many times over the course of 18 months
• whenever Nel asked a hard question, and there were many
• when Roux outlined all the things that he’d lost – fame, fortune, career, home and properties, friends and self-respect,

isn’t it absolutely amazing that he couldn’t and didn’t shed one tear when Kim was talking about Reeva, describing how the family missed her, and had suffered and will continue to suffer. Her tears were genuine, unlike his. Many reporters and those in the legal profession said they’d never heard an accused cry or put on a display such as his – crying, wailing, retching over and over and over.

“Whatever the reason is for summoning the tears, crying on the spot is possible".

• think back to the loss of how it feels when you’re going to miss out on something you've worked really hard to achieve
• think of something that could happen in the future
• when you’re confronted with the idea that you’re not how you see yourself
• dig deep into your emotional self and let it all out, concentrating only on you – not your surroundings, not the situation, just on you
• it can cause you to get sleepy
• irritate your eyes. A common method for starting tears is to cause your eyes discomfort
• rub your eyes. Close your eyes and rub your eyelids for about 25 seconds. Open them and stare at something until the tears start rolling. You might not get it the first time but it can work wonders. Rubbing can leave your eyes sore but if done gently, it can help redden the complexion around your eye area, too
• hold your nose very tightly so you can't breathe through it
• yawn repeatedly
• sob by making crying noises while taking deep breaths
• once you’re crying, cover your face with your hands and lower your head
• rest your head on something in front of you in a gesture of hopelessness or attempt to self-compose
• when speaking, constrict your vocal cords. Aim to stutter your words and add in long intakes of breath to add to the effect. Ramble on about the thing that has supposedly caused you to feel upset

http://www.wikihow.com/Cry-On-the-Spot

The above website may have taught him all he knows about turning on the tears. I think we’ve all seen pictures of every point mentioned.

There are many other things that cause me to detest KP but it’s better perhaps to leave it at this.

 

[Estelle]

Inequality before the law: Oscar Pistorius vs. Ronnie Fakude

While double-amputee murder accused Oscar Pistorius sobbed uncontrollably in the North Gauteng High Court three weeks ago, hundreds of kilometres away in the Bloemfontein Regional Court tears of joy and relief rolled down the cheeks of paraplegic fraud-accused Ronnie Fakude. Sitting in a donated wheelchair wearing a dressing gown and pyjama pants, Fakude had just heard that he’d been granted bail after 28 months awaiting trial behind bars, and was set to become an electronic monitoring “guinea pig.”

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...scar-pistorius-vs.-ronnie-fakude/#.VD0W1SmSyi

If OP does not get prison time, I certainly hope that he would have to be monitored electronically.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Does anyone know how long the sentencing part takes? Does Masipa just sit down and hand down the sentence, or does she give reasons for her decision? Saying "You have to do some light dusting" would only take a few seconds.

The sentencing phase is essentially a mini-trial. It is the most important part of the trial. She will give her reasons as to how she arrived at the sentence and this could take as long as delivering the judgment itself.

 

[emirates1957]

Exceptionally articulate and eloquent.

Hear Hear.

 

[vansleuths]

Inequality before the law: Oscar Pistorius vs. Ronnie Fakude

While double-amputee murder accused Oscar Pistorius sobbed uncontrollably in the North Gauteng High Court three weeks ago, hundreds of kilometres away in the Bloemfontein Regional Court tears of joy and relief rolled down the cheeks of paraplegic fraud-accused Ronnie Fakude. Sitting in a donated wheelchair wearing a dressing gown and pyjama pants, Fakude had just heard that he’d been granted bail after 28 months awaiting trial behind bars, and was set to become an electronic monitoring “guinea pig.”

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...scar-pistorius-vs.-ronnie-fakude/#.VD0W1SmSyi

If OP does not get prison time, I certainly hope that he would have to be monitored electronically.

BIB, there's no doubt of that

 

[JudgeJudi]

So according to Roux, OP has suffered enough. These are people who have suffered enough:

Dudley Lee successfully sued DCS for contracting TB while awaiting trial from 1999 to 2004.

“Victor Nkomo, who had to wait for his trial for more than eight years, explained that he had to stay in a communal cell designed for 20 with 60 other men.

Consider the case of Tebogo Meje, a man who spent seven years behind bars in the privately run Mangaung prison for a crime he did not commit. Before his final acquittal, he claims that he was subjected to severe abuse at the hands of the ‘Ninjas’, nickname for the emergency support teams deployed to contain prison unrest. After a series of riots in the prison in 2013, they were called in to restore order.

He says: "They took off my shirt, and my trousers, I was only left with my underwear. Then they handcuffed me... I was kneeling down, [with] my head on the ground. They pour water on me and then they electrified me. Some of them were kicking me. They were 10 or 15 in the room. Then they took me to [what] they call a special treatment unit. "When you go there you stay alone. The cell is dark. It's only having a bed, a toilet and a washing basin. You don't see anything, it's like a hole. I stayed there for three to four weeks."

Where does this leave OP? “The reality is that the kinds of violence and environmental risks described above will most probably not affect him. His wealth, status and notoriety almost certainly guarantees that any time he might spend behind bars would be as uneventful as possible.

The public's concern should be: what if you are Tebogo Meje, wrongfully arrested, convicted and incarcerated? Or Victor Nkomo, awaiting a trial for eight years? Or David Mkhwanazi, who was arrested for supposedly sprinting away from the scene of a murder when he had, in fact, been late for work and running for a train? After six years in prison –where he contracted TB – the evidence against Mkhwanazi was finally assessed: he was released immediately, judged to have had no involvement in the murder.

So the question of Pistorius's sentence – and whether it will include time in jail – should stop fascinating South Africans and the world alike. Rather, we should use this surge of interest in our criminal justice system to shine a light on the poor, dispossessed and uninformed who are trapped perilously within it”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-debate-on-south-african-prisons-9804292.html

 

[Estelle]

Chris Greenland speaking about Roux' attack on the media:

http://702.co.za/articles/490/former-judge-chris-greenland-on-barry-roux-s-attack-on-media

 

[mirage1]

I’ve never had a good rant before so I apologize in advance but I just have to do it on two especially telling points.

1) KP (Killer Pistorius) testified that it was him screaming non-stop for 15 minutes before the shooting but after he entered the toilet and saw Reeva on the floor, he stopped screaming. Nel asked him … paraphrasing … “Why? Wouldn’t that be the time you would have screamed?” and KP replied, “Why, what was the point?” If ever, ever an innocent person was going to scream that he’d mistakenly killed the one he loved, this would be the precise moment where you’d start and never stop.
.

Good points but this is ultimately speculation, and does not really prove anything other than being suspicious. Oscar can just say he did not feel like screaming at that point and you can't really do much more with it.

 

[Estelle]

Ubuntu: Roux unearths skeletons

Many wondered whether he would have used the term if the overseeing judge had not been black.

http://now.co.za/post/ubuntu-roux-unearths-skeletons/

Definition of "Ubuntu" in South Africa:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy)

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/ubuntu-or-10-years-for-oscar-1.1766967#.VENao1cgues

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Shouldn't Masipa disregard all Maringa's testimony, seeing as he based it on the Tasha's incident?

LOL, that was embarrassing, I didn't think anyone could surpass him in the clueless stakes, but then along came AV.