Trial Discussion Thread #59 - 14.21.10, Day 48 ~ sentencing~

[mirage1]

How is it possible for OP to have intentionally shot the person in the toilet without having foreseen the possibility of their death?

This point was certainly not clear in the judgement - that is precisely why an appeal is on the cards

First it was not clear what exactly was held

1. Did he intentionally shoot? HELD YES

2. Did he intend to shoot the person? UNCLEAR WHAT WAS HELD (UNTIL TODAY)

3. If he did intend to shoot the person, how was it that he did not foresee the possibility of death? UNCLEAR WHAT WAS HELD

Instead we just have this weird finding that he did not intend to kill reeva or anyone else for that matter.

Puzzling to say the least.

In any event - it is hard to see how any sentient adult, let alone one with extensive firearms experience, can intentionally shoot someone without foreseeing death.

The judgement was farcical and I doubt any judge could really be so incompetent. It is laughable to suggest that shooting into that toilet was not intent to kill, but then to go further and say the shooter could not even possibly foresee death is beyond all bounds of logic and reason, even for a child. This decision was corrupt imo.

 

[vansleuths]

BBM .. that was when we had heard all the accounts of what a harsh judge she was .. but then it started to become obvious, by the questions she was asking in court, that she wasn't really on the ball. I went off her even before the verdict was announced, so it was nothing to do with her dishing out a verdict that I don't believe was the correct one, it was because it started to dawn on me that she was clueless and gullible.

BIB Wouldn't you think that if she was "clueless and gullible", her employer would terminate her employment?

 

[IndianSummer]

This trial was never about Reeva – not to Oscar, not to his family, not to Roux, not to the Judge, not to the Assessors. If Gerrie Nel hadn't constantly reminded everybody that it was Reeva who lost everything, who was “broken” then she would have become just another nameless woman who suffered at the hands of someone who she thought loved her.

And I have no adequate words for the privileged, dysfunctional Pistorius clan. Clueless Carl and Oscar who swim merrily through life, leaving dead women in their wake.

View attachment 61949

https://twitter.com/carlpistorius/status/515853128747728897

Brilliant post. Thank you for this REAL view.

 

[vansleuths]

The 'processes' have failed Reeva. The truth won't ever be heard now, and Pistorius has got away with murder.

If Masipa had ruled this as murder, would the truth have been heard than? Unfortunately, in this case, regardless of whether this was a murder or CH verdict, the truth died with Reeva as OP won't divulge it.

 

[Estelle]

BIB I know this won't go over very well on this forum, but I do feel sorry for Oscar. 23 hours a day in solitary confinement would be brutal for anyone and for someone like OP who is always around people, I would think this would be a living hell. He will eventually come out of prison and I would think this would just destroy his psyche.

One thing to keep in mind however is this is something that he chose because he didn't want to be with the general population.

I agree that it would be like solitary confinement. However, mention has been made of his doing programs and many other things so that does not make sense. Why doesn't he begin or continue with his degree?

But I must say I do not agree with his having his cell phone while in prison. How can they justify that?

I also read that he is classed as a B grade prisoner. He will be allowed 45 visits per year and only 2 people on weekends. I guess that will be from his siblings.

So Masipa has punished him twice now or only once?

 

[vansleuths]

The issue is an error of law, which goes beyond people agreeing or disagreeing with Masipa's verdict, per se.

Agreed and I do hope that the PT does appeal this for clarification.

 

[vansleuths]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29712728
BBC NEWS Africa
21 October 2014
Oscar Pistorius begins jail sentence for Reeva Steenkamp death

"...the Women's League of South Africa's ruling African National Congress said it did plan to appeal.
"We're doing this not only for Reeva but for the millions of South African women who are killed at the hands of their partners, people who are supposed to protect them," said spokeswoman Khsuela Sangoni.
"A five-year sentence like this sends a message to society that it is fine to commit such heinous crimes as femicide, and you will be able to get away with a slap on the wrist."

BIB

Would someone have knowledge of this.

What kind of power does the Women's League have that they can force an appeal, I thought this decision lied solely with the NPA?

 

[Estelle]

BIB Why didn't he want to go? Can I surmise that he was feeling the stress to perform and succeed? With thousands in attendance and millions watching around the world, wouldn't that be understandable? I can only imagine that there are a lot of Olympians that have secrets in their closets, it's just that OP's were revealed because of this trial.

It appears to me that Trish Taylor was like a surrogate mother to OP. Perhaps the only person he felt he could show his apparent loss of confidence to - possibly a fear of failure. To others, he showed his bravado.

 

[vansleuths]

I agree that it would be like solitary confinement. However, mention has been made of his doing programs and many other things so that does not make sense. Why doesn't he begin or continue with his degree?

But I must say I do not agree with his having his cell phone while in prison. How can they justify that?

I also read that he is classed as a B grade prisoner. He will be allowed 45 visits per year and only 2 people on weekends. I guess that will be from his siblings.

So Masipa has punished him twice now or only once?

BIB...how ironic, from Wikipedia

Pistorius began studying for a Bachelor of Commerce (B.Com.)[16] in business management with sports science at the University of Pretoria in 2006.[24][25][31] In a June 2008 interview for his University's website, he joked: "I won't graduate soon. With all the training I have had to cut down on my subjects. Hopefully I'll finish by the time I'm 30!"

 

[Estelle]

BIB

Would someone have knowledge of this.

What kind of power does the Women's League have that they can force an appeal, I thought this decision lied solely with the NPA?

Please read my post No 1197

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...n-Thread-59-14-21-10-Day-48-sentencing/page48

 

[vansleuths]

Please read my post No 1197

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...n-Thread-59-14-21-10-Day-48-sentencing/page48

Thank you

 

[Estelle]

NPA TO DECIDE ON APPEAL

NPA boss Mxolisi Nxasana says they will have to study the record and consult with the state's prosecution team before deciding on any appeal in the Pistorius case.

Nnxasana was asked about a possible appeal against the Paralympian's conviction or sentence or both while briefing parliament's justice committee earlier today.

“We’ll have to study the record, consult with the prosecution team and then we’ll take the matter forward.”

http://ewn.co.za/2014/10/21/Oscar-P...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[homegirl]

WOW!

Ok, now here's my thought.

I'll tell you who I think would REALLY like them: June and Barry - and Kim, Reeva's cousin.

But how could we get the pics to them? Ah-ha! I found the answer as I was awaiting your reply!

This site lists info. on Kim...


RSBM

Hey Colonel, I have been thinking about this today. I have some concerns about sending the composites to the Reeva's family. Most importantly, I am not sure how they might feel about them. Grief is such a solitary thing. Everyone bears it alone,and in their own way. I don't know how any one of them might feel about seeing, again, an image of their beloved Reeva, knowing that OP was with her when it was taken, being able to see his smirking face even when not there. There are so many beautiful images of Reeva. Maybe they never wish to see one of those again. It made me feel good to take her away from him put her safely between her parents, but I can't know how they would feel and I couldn't bear to cause them any more pain. I loved doing the second image. That photo of June and Barry is so heartbreakinly beautiful to me. June, reaching out with perfect love and understanding, through unbearable sorrow, to console the inconsolable Barry. Reeva was happy and away from OP during the Tropica filming, but would they want it associated with the courtroom where they suffered so much? What do they think of that courtroom image?

Secondly, I am not sure about copyright issues. I don't know who has the rights to the source photos and it is a little nebulous as to how they may be used in an artistic adaptation. I have read copyright law on this issue, but it isn't clear to me. Maybe I am worrying needlessly. It's not like I think they will go viral or anything, but I don't want to cause anyone any problems.

Laslty, they need more work to satisfy me about their quality. They still look too photoshopped to me. I can make them better.

 

[Estelle]

I then wondered what Mxolisis Nxasana's background is mainly because I would have thought that the NPA would have already studied the verdict and had something ready for the Appeal. I also wondered what he looked like so there is a photo on this link:

http://citizen.co.za/261561/mxolisi-nxasana-denies-settlement-offer/

But there is more to it.

Embattled national director of public prosecutions Mxolisi Nxasana on Tuesday told MPs there was no truth to media reports that he had been offered a R5 million golden handshake by President Jacob Zuma.

“It has been widely reported that an offer has been made, and equally widely reported in the media where I refuted that there has been an offer,” he told Parliament’s portfolio committee on justice. Nxasana was responding to a question from the Democratic Alliance’s Glynnis Breytenbach, who also asked whether his standoff with the president was having a negative impact on the performance of the National Prosecuting Authority.

He denied this, saying there “was no rift” between himself and the president, save that Zuma had announced an inquiry into whether he was a fit and proper person to hold his post. Zuma announced the inquiry four months ago but has not announced any terms of reference for a probe.

It was motivated by the State Security Agency’s refusal to grant Nxasana security clearance because of charges, including murder, levelled against him years ago. He was acquitted of murder.

What a country!

 

[cottonweaver]

BIB Why didn't he want to go? Can I surmise that he was feeling the stress to perform and succeed? With thousands in attendance and millions watching around the world, wouldn't that be understandable? I can only imagine that there are a lot of Olympians that have secrets in their closets, it's just that OP's were revealed because of this trial.

Trish Taylor covers it well in the book. SHe had some psychology training - well at least she seems more impartial than L.Harzenberg. Anyway, yes it was the stress of performing, he was integral to a huge money-making machine pimped out by PVZ and driven by his own desire for wealth and fame BUT he was also just beginning to fall apart psychologically. Very deep seated, unresolved issues.

 

[cottonweaver]

BIB Wouldn't you think that if she was "clueless and gullible", her employer would terminate her employment?

You have to allow a little hyperbole in posts- otherwise WS would be really dull.
As for incompetence I would not go that far BUT two things. First she will never have had her judgments scrutinised as closely before in her career, not when she was mainly dealing with "poor black folks." Secondly Judge Chris Greenland constantly said in Legal Panel Roundtables on Channel199 that wisdom about people, insight into how they behave, plus real life experience are essential to being an effective Judge. Read between the lines there. (Obviously JM has vast life experience but she may not have the other attributes.)

 

[Estelle]

The angry and the bizarre: Radio callers react to Pistorius sentence

Talkback radio switchboards in South Africa have lit up like camera flashes at an Opening Ceremony, with listeners phoning in to vent their spleen over the sentencing of Oscar Pistorius.

On Talk Radio 702, presenter Aubrey Masango took calls from unhappy South Africans who believed Pistorius got off lightly.

- "The judge needs to explain to my ironing lady why her son has to sit in jail for 10 years and Oscar Pistorius gets 8 months."

http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/neil-mi...act-to-pistorius-sentence/20141022-3il8v.html

 

[cottonweaver]

BIB I know this won't go over very well on this forum, but I do feel sorry for Oscar. 23 hours a day in solitary confinement would be brutal for anyone and for someone like OP who is always around people, I would think this would be a living hell. He will eventually come out of prison and I would think this would just destroy his psyche.

One thing to keep in mind however is this is something that he chose because he didn't want to be with the general population.

Sorry VanSleuths - I have to reply to this one too - not trying to disagree again as you make some interesting points and really I am just jumping off your post.

I agree with you - he "chose this", fought to be imprisoned in the best possible conditions. This is a win win for him.
Solitary confinement - I think that's a stretch - he is on a hospitable ward - with the relative privilege of a single cell. He is next door to other disabled prisoners ( someone posted an update of the number that are in the ward recently.) He will be able to converse with others.

I agree for someone who suffers from insomnia and manic behaviour, being locked in a small cubicle is tough. BUT as others have said, he will have that eased by medications not available to other inmates. He may even have his toys and gadgets with him too, due to privilege. Plus prison is meant to be tough - he now has some time to think about why he is in prison.

As for being around people he, apparently, spent quite a lot of time alone whether in Italy training or back in SA. He didn't even see much of his family and kept in contact with them in latter years through social media.

I used to feel sympathy for him - right up until a few months ago - not any more. I have still have mercy of course but I genuinely feel, because he's "special" he has got a really good deal in Kgosi Mampuru. Feel more sympathy for some of the other guys locked in the 20 to a room cells waiting for appeals!

OP got a great deal 10 months in a hospital ward a few miles from his family, although I doubt even Barry Roux, who probably has a champagne hangover, could convince him of that.

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/22/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-sentenced.html?_r=0
AFRICA

Oscar Pistorius’s 5-Year Sentence May Mean Move to House Arrest
By ALAN COWELL, OCT. 21, 2014.

On the street outside the courtroom, some South Africans told reporters that Mr. Pistorius should have been jailed for 10, or even 20, years.
Reuters quoted Johannes Mbatha, 38, a minibus taxi driver in Johannesburg, as saying. “It shows our society hasn’t transformed”...
“If it was a black man, he would have never received such a light sentence,” Mr. Mbatha said. “But that’s how things are in South Africa.”

 

[Fuskier]

FYI opinion:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2014/10/21/oscar-pistorius-sentencing/17649779/
Oscar Pistorius sentenced to five years in prison
Rebecca Weber and Zaheer Cassim, Special for USA TODAY 21 October 2014.

Legal experts said Masipa managed to remain uninfluenced by the public pressure in South Africa over the course of the lengthy trial.
"She's a really, really well-balanced judge," said Mannie Witz, a criminal defense attorney in Johannesburg who mentored Masipa for a year when she was training to be a lawyer in 1991. "She's really what you want in a judge — she's impartial, she doesn't follow media, she won't be influenced by anything."