Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

[canny]

According to his affidavit, OP was sleeping on the LEFT side of the bed, with his gun on the floor nearby.

Where Reeva's overnight bag and flip-flops were found.The holster was also found on the left side of the bed.

 

[weeeva]

BBM

Four separate ear witnesses heard a woman screaming before the gunshots. A few of them heard a woman screaming during the gunshots. Dr. Stipp saw the bathroom light on immediately after the gunshots (alluding to the possibility that it was on all along).

If we believe these witnesses, the only woman that was in the house at the time, Reeva, was obviously screaming for a reason and Oscar would have obviously heard it. Which means he knew she was in the bathroom.

This is the proof that the State is beginning to build.

Now it certainly is your prerogative to not believe any witnesses. And the Defense would like everyone to believe that the female screaming was actually Oscar.

I don't want to jump the gun (no pun etc). There is so much more evidence to be heard.

 

[TorisMom003]

Yes, that sounds reasonable for us to say that now after the fact, but if someone is in a blind panic they don't behave in a reasonable manner.

The problem with this is, OP doesn't behave in a reasonable manner even when he is not in a "blind panic". Perhaps if he did, on a daily basis, then people would be more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Also if his story didn't have holes large enough to drive an 18-wheeler through then it would be easier to believe him as well. As it is, his story has changed between the tellings and it is simply not believable.

MOO

 

[Really?]

Regarding what is "possibly" a bullet hole in OP'S bedroom door, if it is indeed a bullet hole, isn't it likely that there will be damage somewhere on the otherside of the door where the bullet hit? like on a wall possibly?, unless it hit a person that is.

If I may continue on a theory where someone was on the other side of the door...........well than carrying her body downstairs is, I guess, as good reason as any to explain the blood on other side of said door.......hhhhhhmmmm....

*puff puff*
:websleuther:

 

[soozieqtips]

Yes, that sounds reasonable for us to say that now after the fact,
but if someone is in a blind panic they don't behave in a reasonable manner.

BBM - He says he was overcome with fear and terror, but that has yet to be proved. If every single person who heard a noise (when they had someone staying over) decided to shoot and kill before finding out if it was the other occupant making the noise, then I'm sure most people wouldn't stay over - for fear of getting killed if they got up to get a drink or go to the loo. As for him being in a blind panic, once again, it's just his story and not necessarily the truth. As has been mentioned numerous times before, if someone who is so paranoid about their safety (paranoid enough to shoot without checking if their guest was up and about), then why sleep with the bedroom doors open? Does that really sound like the logical actions of a man in constant fear of being burgled?

 

[minor4th]

Would what Botha intended to say at the BH have been checked first by his superiors or the NPA?

Botha said once in an interview that he thought it was "a cut and dried" case.

You would think, but apparently there is a lot of corruption in the police department and it can go all the way up to the top. I think "political" decisions were being made at the beginning - as opposed to objectively looking at the actual evidence.

 

[minor4th]

If I can just add to this a little, although this does show incompetence on the part of forensics guy regarding fingerprinting etc, luckily for the prosecution the accused isn't denying holding and shooting the gun, so the severity of this error is not as bad as it may have been. This would also influence the states reason to disclose.

That particular error probably has no consequence, but it does demonstrate that the crimescene was handled improperly - therefore casting doubt on the reliability of all the evidence from the scene

 

[minor4th]

Bribes?

Bribes from whom to whom? Explain a little more what you're thinking, if you don't mind.

 

[weeeva]

BBM: Wasn't he more at risk of an intruder coming through the open door from the balcony? Why would an intruder crawl through a small bathroom window? So okay, in "fight or flight" perhaps he wasn't reasoning

Going with your premise that Oscar really believed there was an intruder, how do you explain the witnesses hearing blood curdling screams from a woman?

Do you think:
1) Oscar screams like a woman when he says "Reeva call the police" or when calling "Help, help, help over the balcony or
2) the screams came from a different residence?
or
3) ?

Wait a minute I think I am beginning to have a change of heart. Not totally but something just happened in my brain for a split second. Then it just disappeared again. I will have to try to concentrate. My thoughts are all over the place. Am I really going nuts or something? Am I so soft hearted that I can feel sorry for a cold hearted killer? Do I need help?

 

[minor4th]

Yes. Everything seemed to happen so quickly according to the witnesses. OP only had minutes from the time the shots, screams and cricket bat were heard, to construct a plausible story and alter the crime scene. That is why I am willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt at present. I seem to be the only person I know who wants him to be innocent. I don't want him to get away with it. I want him to be innocent. Does anyone out there agree with me?

I want him to be innocent. I think there are many people who want him to be innocent, even if they think he's guilty. I agree with you in that I am willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt (innocent until proven guilty and all) and so far there has been no evidence that suggests premeditation or suggests that he knew he was shooting at Reeva.

I also do not think he could have constructed a story or staged a scene or covered up evidence in the short time he had.

 

[Really?]

BBM - Yikes! This is the first mention I've heard of dogs!

Now, naturally, I'm wondering if any of the neighbors reported hearing the dogs barking or, under questioning, said they didn't hear dogs!?!?

No intruder = no dog barks

The dogs haven't been brought up in court 'cept say for VR making sure they were cared for after securing the premises

 

[minor4th]

I think Botha made a few mistakes and perhaps did not check on information that turned out to be crucial. There really was not much time to get it all together before the Bail Hearing. Roux therefore hung him out to dry. I am also very suspicious of the reintroduction of the charge of murder against Botha. IMO to muddy the water. As far as I can see he was only doing his job in trying to stop a vehicle containing criminals by trying to shoot out the tyres. I have not seen what happened with respect to that charge. Does anyone know? It is my suspicion that it will be quietly dropped.

This is one of the reasons I wondered if there was a divide in the police force over how aggressively to pursue OP at the early stages. Although I believe I read that the murder charges had been reinstated earlier in February even before the incident - but the prosecution only learned of this fact during the bail hearing.

ETA: I just found this article:

The National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) said the charges against Botha were reinstated on 4 February, 10 days before Pistorius shot dead Steenkamp, 29, in a locked toilet at his Pretoria home.

"The decision to reinstate was taken on 4 February, way before the issue of Pistorius came to light or the murder of Reeva was committed," an NPA spokesman, Medupe Simasiku, told Reuters. "It's completely unrelated to this trial."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/21/oscar-pistorius-hilton-botha-attempted-murder

 

[lisasalinger]

Actually I have never heard of a case where the murderer has called so many people and they were all there within about an hour after his crime to support him to try to get away with it perhaps!

Sounds like the Jonbenet Ramsey case to me.

 

[soozieqtips]

I want him to be innocent. I think there are many people who want him to be innocent, even if they think he's guilty. I agree with you in that I am willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt (innocent until proven guilty and all) and so far there has been no evidence that suggests premeditation or suggests that he knew he was shooting at Reeva.

I also do not think he could have constructed a story or staged a scene or covered up evidence in the short time he had.

BBM - Not strictly true, unless you discount all the witnesses who heard screams before the shooting, and Dr Stipp who heard two distinct voices - one male and one female. I think it takes a huge leap of faith to assume all these witnesses must be mistaken, every single one of them.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

I do not think OP tried to alter evidence. It seems at the house the only thing he did was to wash his hands and face. And it seems the only thing he said was that he had shot her, thinking it was a burgler.

The lady lawyer would surely have advised OP to not make any further statements about it until his lawyer was there. That detective Van said he tried to ask OP questions but that OP was too upset to answer. (Wonder if he was puking?)

OP's lawyers visited the scene and took their own photos. They would then have listened to OP's story and assisted him in preparing his Bail Hearing statement.

 

[minor4th]

FYI - For comparison:

OP's Bail Affidavit:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/126352744/Oscar-Pistorius-affidavit

OP's Full Plea Statement read by counsel at trial:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/210458767/Oscar-Pistorius-plea

 

[lisasalinger]

Wait--Stander and his daughter didn't arrived at 3.17. That was the time of the 2nd set of sounds. According to OP's phone logs, he called Stander at 3.19.

It's posted on the timeline that Clarise said she and her father, Stander, arrived at 3:20. I find this hard to believe. Even in an emergency, how a man receive a call in the middle of the night, wake up his daughter, get halfway dressed and both arrive on the scene within 1 minute? Even if they lived just down the street, that's pretty fast. This is one of those "maybe their clock was off" type things? Can someone please clarify?

BBM

This has been nagging at me for a long time too!

I understand Baba getting there quickly... he is dressed and in a vehicle patrolling the community. But a civilian sleeping in their home at the time of the call... that is an awfully quick response.

 

[Really?]

BBM - He says he was overcome with fear and terror, but that has yet to be proved. If every single person who heard a noise (when they had someone staying over) decided to shoot and kill before finding out if it was the other occupant making the noise, then I'm sure most people wouldn't stay over - for fear of getting killed if they got up to get a drink or go to the loo. As for him being in a blind panic, once again, it's just his story and not necessarily the truth. As has been mentioned numerous times before, if someone who is so paranoid about their safety (paranoid enough to shoot without checking if their guest was up and about), then why sleep with the bedroom doors open? Does that really sound like the logical actions of a man in constant fear of being burgled?

BBM
:silly:

 

[kittychi]

It does not take rocket science to figure out after seeing the bullet holes in the door for the first time two days ago in court that the four bullets holes in the door are pointing straight forward into the door and not angling downwards as claimed by Botha in his testimony at the BH to substantiate his theory that OP was wearing his prosthetics when he fired the shots. Why did Rensburg not overrule his subordinate Botha and save the SA police from this unwarranted disaster.

Sure, he informed OP that he is a suspect, read him his rights but he has not testified so far if OP informed him that he had engaged the services of an attorney. As a competent Commander it was his duty to probe further during preliminary investigation, interrogated him and asked him though questions right away.

Did VR ask OP to surrender the phone he used to communicate with anybody after the shooting?
Did VR take position of the gun and asked OP whether there were any more weapons and bullets located in the home?
Did he ask OP if he called the police?
Did he ask OP what prevented him from calling the Police that was his legal and moral duty, because he had all the time in the world to call up his friend’s, relatives and immediately engaged the services of an attorney. This should have been the biggest red flag in VR’s mind a senior cop with 25 years experience regarding OP’s intruder theory.
Did he ask OP if he had Informed Reeva’s family about her accidental death and if not, Why?
Did VR ask OP how many bullets did he fire, and why there are four holes in the door?
Did VR ask OP why did he not hear Reeva screaming out in pain?
Did VR ask OP why his hands and face were clean of blood unlike the rest of his body?
Did VR ask OP who gave him the permission to wash his hands and face?
Did VR ask OP who gave him the permission to break open the toilet door and remove Reeva’s body? The possibility of her having survived four bullets in such a confined area was ruled out,as OP claimed she never responded, this should have made VR most suspicious that OP had deliberately disturbed the crime scene with ulterior motives.
Did VR ask OP ifhe had any medical training?
Did VR ask OP if any person known to him had visited the crime scene?

Did VR ask OP for the origin of the white blankets and black garbage bags that were used to bandage Reeva’s wounds? This question is critical because Clarice Stander brought the towels from the clothes cabinets located in the corridor leading to the Crime scene. Who authorized this lawyer to enter the crime scene? In court Roux is picking holes in VR’s statement that only he and Botha from the police toured the crime scene together, by referring to statements given by other policemen.

If OP would have refused to cooperate on the advice of his attorney, VR should have arrested him in the kitchen itself, and not wait for his subordinate HB to order him to make the arrest in the garage.

The answers to the above questions overwhelmingly proves, that VR did not understand and follow elementary procedures, that had to be strictly followed at any homicide crime scene, he willfully disregarded the reputation and celebrity status of his ‘suspect’ treated him with kid gloves to his own peril that eventually forced him to resign from the police force in disgrace.

BBM: The one "excuse" I may have for VanRensburg acting outside of law enforcement and legal boundaries would be that this was Oscar Pistorius.

As I understand it, OP was second to Nelson Mandela in South Africa regarding hero status. I honestly think the citizens, neighbors, witnesses and LE were totally thrown off that this unimaginable thing was happening to this highly regarded, respected, emulated and untainted (as far as they knew) celebrity hero.

IMO, it probably took awhile to sink in. Also, because it seems that LE always brushed things aside, I bet many South Africans were totally shocked to learn of the other gun incidents, drunk boating incident and the hot headed temper.

 

[Really?]

Wait a minute I think I am beginning to have a change of heart. Not totally but something just happened in my brain for a split second. Then it just disappeared again. I will have to try to concentrate. My thoughts are all over the place. Am I really going nuts or something? Am I so soft hearted that I can feel sorry for a cold hearted killer? Do I need help?

No, you do not need help. moo

After reading "In Cold Blood" by Truman Capote I swore I would be a defense lawyer.....

however.....Now I would prosecute the s*** out of him now.