Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[steveml]

Maybe you should spend some more time reading the other threads and watching the videos before you make your second post.

If you have a problem please take it to a moderator as per CoC.

 

[soozieqtips]

Agree with all of that apart from the BIB, because I doubt it actually ever happened that he asked her to bring the fans in in the first place.

I think that might be one of the few truths he's actually told to be honest, or else why bother to include it when it doesn't add anything beneficial to his version/s. Most of his new additions, "told Reeva to get down low" - "yelled at Reeva to phone security" - "heard door slam" - "heard wood on wood" are ways of trying to add credibility to a) his claim that he was trying to protect Reeva, and b) his 'fear' that an intruder had broken in. But including something like asking Reeva to bring in the fans doesn't add anything useful to his version/s.

 

[TorisMom003]

Another slip of the tongue. Mr. Nel said that there was a lot of shouting and screaming. You were shouting and screaming for them to get out of your house. OP says he was shouting and screaming at Reeva to get down and phone police, shouting and screaming at them to get out of his house.

A few minutes ago it was whispering at Reeva to get down and phone police. Then it was not whispering but speaking softly at Reeva to get down and phone police.

He can't keep his version (lies) straight.

 

[Emz73]

"I wasn't ready to take somebodies life. I screamed at the intruder/s to get out of my home."

But yet instead of letting said intruder/s get out of his home, have time to get out of his home, he fired 4 bullets through the toilet room door pausing after the first shot.

Makes complete sense, in some alternate universe.

Wow that's true!! How were they meant to get out?? If it was them opening the door with a stick with a white flag flying, he still would of shot them. They didn't have a chance.

 

[soozieqtips]

WHY would Roux intervene when Nel is making a fool of himself?

While Nel is digging himself into a hole, Roux does not want to hinder him. He certainly does not want to take Nel's spade off him.

There are lots of things that "don't make sense" to Nel. They make perfect sense to me, and I am sure also the defense and the Judge. (Roux has the opportunity to clarify things for the judge anyway). Nel's "confusion" is a gift, a good starting point to sharpen the defense points from. It is only through Nel's histrionics that Roux is getting a look at the version the State wants to propose. It is full of inconsistencies within itself. Their own "ear" witnesses disagree on some important points, and the interpretation that all the State witnesses have made is clearly at odds with the State's own expert witnesses and the real physical evidence.

Oh dear. You're still on the Nel bashing?

 

[BritsKate]

Ok, I'm going to go there and go ahead and call BS on OP's claim that he was sleeping on the side of the bed closest to the bathroom instead of the sliding doors. Here's why:

1. His legs were on the side next to the sliding doors.
2. The Ipad was on the side next to the sliding doors.
3. His vest was on the side next to the sliding doors.
4. The Ipad cover was on the side next to the sliding doors.
5. He normally sleeps on the side next to the sliding doors.

The question is why would he lie about what side he was sleeping on? What purpose does this serve to the defense?

I dunno. But I do know the blood that hasn't been explained yet in the bedroom was on the left side.

If his claim is that Reeva was by the balcony then it makes his claim that she Poofed! to the bathroom while he went onto/didn't go onto the balcony to bring in the fans that were out there/only one leg out there all the more impossible. For that reason, and those you mentioned, I'd thought it was a foregone conclusion already he was by the balcony and she wasn't.

 

[jay-jay]

And I don't get why people won't keep an open mind and think that maybe, just maybe he is telling the truth. If a person is called to do jury duty, that is the position they are expected to take. We have still to hear lots more evidence, but so far I think his story is plausible. That does not mean I won't have a change of heart.
I don't even like the man, but that is neither here nor there, he deserves a fair trial.

He is having a fair trial .. the judge and her assessors won't be taking a blind bit of notice of what is happening outside of the courtroom whether it be the news channels, the press, twitter, internet forums, etc .. they're not interested in all that and are totally focussed on the evidence and testimonies being presented to them .. so don't worry, nothing that is said here will have any influence on them whatsoever!

 

[james83]

I missed the early part of Monday and was just having a read through, Did Oscar really make this slip up at the start of his testimony

10:10 - Roux asks time between gunshots and cricket bat hitting the door. OP says about five minutes.

Pistorius: I marked out distance that I walked on stumps, how fast I could walk - five minutes between cricket bat, fired weapon

five minutes between cricket bat-fired weapon?, shouldn't that be the other way round?.

 

[Emz73]

Maybe you should spend some more time reading the other threads and watching the videos before you make your second post.

Bit rude. I'm sure you meant welcome but we may have covered that possibility.
Two questions at the end were good ones though.

Did you know 100% Reeva wasn't behind the door?
OP. No I couldn't be 100% sure she wasn't behind the door.
Then can you admit she could of been behind the door?....
Or something like that
,

 

[jay-jay]

Re the last bit.....wasn't it reported that Mrs Steenkamp said to the woman next to her that the jeans looked too big to be Reeva's?

.. I think she said what we were all thinking, then!

 

[shane13]

Hold on, when was the last time Henke Pistorius was seen in public?.....

I laughed when I read this.

Dad, Henke Pistorius joins the list of scapegoats in the Oscar Pistorius matter.
Joined -- as needed-- by Hilton Botha, even Barry Roux.
Also former good bud, Darren Fresco.
Online it was said that former great friends Justin Divaris and Sam Greyvanstein distanced themselves from their earlier claim of "great love" and "imminent marriage."

Who else?

Fascinating that his Dad refused to take the rap for the ammo.
If ammo is really Oscar's, perhaps it was "merely" jumping the gun [pun semi-intended], on getting new guns that he had applications in the works on.

Or is it possible he had another gun? Just speculation now.
But interesting that when questioned by cops for a license for that ammo, perhaps first thing that came to his mind was throw Dad under the bridge.

Good for Henke for not going along. But perhaps he will be a no show now.

Anyone recall: What did Oscar say when Nel told him his father refiused to fill out affidavit saying the .38 ammo was his?

 

[shane13]

I missed the early part of Monday and was just having a read through, Did Oscar really make this slip up at the start of his testimony

10:10 - Roux asks time between gunshots and cricket bat hitting the door. OP says about five minutes.

Pistorius: I marked out distance that I walked on stumps, how fast I could walk - five minutes between cricket bat, fired weapon

five minutes between cricket bat-fired weapon?, shouldn't that be the other way round?.

Can you please give the video link?

Oscar has slipped up many more times than Nel has called him on.
Sometimes in the same sentence, he gives opposing aspects or thoughts.

This too is part of what is involved, when I say "this one runs deep."

 

[steveml]

WHY would Roux intervene when Nel is making a fool of himself?

While Nel is digging himself into a hole, Roux does not want to hinder him. He certainly does not want to take Nel's spade off him.

There are lots of things that "don't make sense" to Nel. They make perfect sense to me, and I am sure also the defense and the Judge. (Roux has the opportunity to clarify things for the judge anyway). Nel's "confusion" is a gift, a good starting point to sharpen the defense points from. It is only through Nel's histrionics that Roux is getting a look at the version the State wants to propose. It is full of inconsistencies within itself. Their own "ear" witnesses disagree on some important points, and the interpretation that all the State witnesses have made is clearly at odds with the State's own expert witnesses and the real physical evidence.

I'm not sure which way Nel's heading as every move he makes is obstructed by yet another ambiguous photograph.
Hopefully he'll have managed to manoeuvre past the fans by close of play Monday.

 

[Viper]

WHY would Roux intervene when Nel is making a fool of himself?

While Nel is digging himself into a hole, Roux does not want to hinder him. He certainly does not want to take Nel's spade off him.

There are lots of things that "don't make sense" to Nel. They make perfect sense to me, and I am sure also the defense and the Judge. (Roux has the opportunity to clarify things for the judge anyway). Nel's "confusion" is a gift, a good starting point to sharpen the defense points from. It is only through Nel's histrionics that Roux is getting a look at the version the State wants to propose. It is full of inconsistencies within itself. Their own "ear" witnesses disagree on some important points, and the interpretation that all the State witnesses have made is clearly at odds with the State's own expert witnesses and the real physical evidence.

BIB. Do you mean for example, as OP says the police moved the fan in front of the door, closed the doors up a bit around where the fan is standing, opened the curtains and the blinds up all the way, turned on the patio light, and turned on the bedroom lamp; all before they took any crime scene photos? :unbelievable:

 

[Rumpole]

:floorlaugh:

Once again you can tell the state of the defense case when people start criticizing the forum members instead of talking about OP's lame testimony.

When a person gives two different mutually exclusive stories he can't be telling the truth.

"Critisizing forum members" is NOT limited to posters who post from the perspective of "Presumption of Innocence" In fact I put it to you... it is most often seen from from the "OP is guilty" crowd

"Straw Man" Argument:
OP has given "two different mutually exclusive stories" ?

Simply not true at all.

And even if he did... LOGICALLY that does not exclude one of the being true.

The State, through it's witnesses has not quite given any comprehensive detailed version of events. It will be impossible for them to do that since there are "mutually exclusive" points between ear witnesses, and they are all totally at odds with some of the State's own expert witness testimony, and the hard irrefutable physical evidence. SOME of the State's witness testimony at least will have to be disregarded. That is NOT the sort of situation that leads to proof of ANYTHING,,, "Beyond reasonable doubt" The State's "case" comes with DOUBT built in

 

[AlexUK]

I laughed when I read this.

Dad, Henke Pistorius joins the list of scapegoats in the Oscar Pistorius matter.
Joined -- as needed-- by Hilton Botha, even Barry Roux.
Also former good bud, Darren Fresco.
Online it was said that former great friends Justin Divaris and Sam Greyvanstein distanced themselves from their earlier claim of "great love" and "imminent marriage."

Who else?

Fascinating that his Dad refused to take the rap for the ammo.
If ammo is really Oscar's, perhaps it was "merely" jumping the gun [pun semi-intended], on getting new guns that he had applications in the works on.

Or is it possible he had another gun? Just speculation now.
But interesting that when questioned by cops for a license for that ammo, perhaps first thing that came to his mind was throw Dad under the bridge.

Good for Henke for not going along. But perhaps he will be a no show now.

Anyone recall: What did Oscar say when Nel told him his father refiused to fill out affidavit saying the .38 ammo was his?

Re the last Q. Juror 13 reported.....

Nel asks him if he is aware that his father refused to sign a statement related to that. Oscar says no, he’s not aware. He has not seen any statements. Oscar then says he and his father haven’t had communication between them for many years. So Nel asks him the obvious question… “Why would you allow him to put his ammunition in your safe if you haven’t spoken to him in many years?”

 

[BritsKate]

I haven't heard the witness testimony yet, but one has to ask oneself--

If both prosecution and defense agree she was shot at 3am, who was doing all that crying/screaming for 17 minutes?

Do we really know the shots happened all at once?

The defence and prosecutor don't agree. Oscar states he fired shots at about 3:12am - he's estimating that, assuming it took 5 minutes to break the door down, get his legs on, run all over, hold Reeva who wasn't breathing, then was; etc. According to the defence, the second set of bangs was the cricket bat.

The State's witnesses testified the first set of bangs was at, or shortly after, 3am. The second volley was 3:15am.

The defence ignores any and all screaming in one version (the closest neighbours who have yet to testify) and claim in another that it was Oscar screaming - but they haven't gone near the time before he shot. They've done everything they could to imply the witnesses are wrong in one manner or another.

The State accepts all the screaming and I believe tried to show the possibility that Oscar may have hit the door before any shots were fired at all.

As for the shots...State's witness said bang(pause)bangbangbang which was backed up by the State's ballistics expert. Defence said it was double taps then said it wasn't.

The time's still a bit murky on either side so I take Oscar's word for when the shots were fired - which still leaves 12 minutes of screaming totally unaccounted for by the defence.

 

[soozieqtips]

I do hope that towards the end, Nel reads out an entire list of all the people OP says have lied, all the people who have been 'mistaken, and all the people he's blamed for his own misdeeds. Might take a day or two, but still...

 

[Val1]

Yep, but there are two issues:
1. If Reeva was shot at 3:16/3:17 a.m. by OP, did he call Stander and Netcare BEFORE he broke the door down? Otherwise, really tight timeframe (not impossible) to put on his prosthetics and then break the door down and then call Stander.

2. After the Netcare call it was around 3:25 a.m. If he hadn't yet broken the door down, it leaves a very small window before Stander/Dr. Stipp arrives.

I suspect they would have got there around 3:45 a.m. which makes the above very possible.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The only thing that iirc that hasn't been firmed up is exactly when Dr. Stipp arrived, this is what was said shortly after he had arrived and done his preliminary exam of RS. So match it to when the ambulance call was actually made, presumably by Mr.Stander's cell. I don't think this is in evidence yet.. all we can presume is that it was sometime after Baba had seen the Stander's arrive at OP's and when the ambulance arrived and I'm not sure if we have a time for that yet either. (**much thanks to juror13 notes**)

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-4/

Dr. Stipp went outside and asked Mr. Stander if the ambulance was on their way. He said no, he hadn’t called them yet so Dr. Stipp called the hospital emergency department and asked them to send an ambulance. They told him he had to call an emergency number, not them directly, so Mr. Stander called an emergency number. Dr. Stipp spoke to the dispatcher, explained the injuries, and they proceeded to send out an ambulance.

-----------------
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/28/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-15-state-rests/

03:19:03 – Outgoing call to 2251 (Johan Stander) – 24 seconds

03:20:02 – GPRS – 79 seconds

03:20:05 – Outgoing call to 082911 (ambulance service) – 66 seconds

03:21:22 – GPRS – 61 seconds

03:21:33 – Outgoing call to 6797 (Baba, security) – 9 seconds

03:21:47 – Outgoing call to 121 (voicemail) – 7 seconds

03:22:05 – Incoming call from 6797 (Baba, security)

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-6/

Dr. Stipp was the first to call security.
His call went through at 3:15:51am. He reported hearing gunshots. Call lasted 16 seconds.

Mr Nhlengethwa is the second to call security
His call was first attempted at 3:16:16am with no answer
His call went through at 3:16:36am. He reported shots heard.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-4/

And in Oscar’s house, the bathroom light was on. Dr. Stipp went back inside and called Silverwood security. There was no answer. So then he called 10111 (not sure what this is), got a fast ringing. While he was trying to figure out who to call next, he heard another 3 loud bangs. He thought that these also sounded like gunshots. He told his wife to get away from the window, fearing for her safety. He eventually got through to the security. He reported what he heard and they said they would send someone

 

[Linda7NJ]

"Critisizing forum members" is NOT limited to posters who post from the perspective of "Presumption of Innocence" In fact I put it to you... it is most often seen from from the "OP is guilty" crowd

"Straw Man" Argument:
OP has given "two different mutually exclusive stories" ?

Simply not true at all.

And even if he did... LOGICALLY that does not exclude one of the being true.

The State, through it's witnesses has not quite given any comprehenive detailed version of eevents. It will be impossible for them to do that since there are "mutually exclusive" points between ear witnessess, and they are all totally at odds with some of the State's own expert witness testimony, and the hard irrefutable physical evidence. SOME of the State's witnes testimony at least will have to be disregarded. That is NOT the sort of situation that leads to proof of ANYTHING,,, "Beyond reasonable doubt" The State's "case" comes with DOUBT built in

I take issue with how you're using reasonable doubt. It's not reasonable to expect any prosecutor to completely and totally recreate the incident perfectly.
It's way beyond reasonable that Oscar knew she was behind the door when he shot through it. That's all there really is to decide.
IMO


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