Trial - Ross Harris #2

[Hope4More]

BBM

I feel the exact same way as you do. IMO the phone records establish criminal negligence well beyond a reasonable doubt. In a sense, everything else is just gravy on the phone records.

With respect to premeditation, I am not convinced either way yet. There are moments where I feel that his neglect was so prominent that it amounts to intent, but then my rational side returns. Severe neglect does not equal intent.



BBM

That's the million dollar question. Aside from the eyewitness testimony about Ross being on the phone, his records show a six minute call. Six minutes on hold under normal circumstances feels like a long time. Under the circumstances at the crime scene, it would have been an eternity. I believe that Ross did talk to someone while at the scene, but I have absolutely no theory as to the identity of the person on the other end of the line.



We don't know that he wasn't talking to anyone. No one has admitted to talking to him, but that doesn't make the call nonexistent. His phone records show a six minute call, and phone records don't lie. Within three hours of Ross discovering Cooper, Detective Stoddard was asking Ross about that phone call. I know that some believe that LE created a narrative after the fact, but the question about that phone call was posed to Ross shortly after the crime. I believe that call holds significance, but I just don't what it is. It doesn't make any sense.

He absolutely made a call that lasted 6 minutes, one that was routed to Ms. Gray's classroom. What's missing is any evidence that he actually spoke to anyone. Ms. Gray has no reason to lie, and it makes no sense that a parent or another staff member wouldn't acknowledge taking the call.

The call doesn't make any sense in my opinion only because LE persisted in their mistaken belief he'd spoken to someone.

 

[popsicle]

I've listened 7 times and still can't understand what receipt he threw away and they retrieved in the holding cell.

Publix iirc

 

[Hatfield]

His only child is dead, he's been in jail for two years, his wife divorced him, he is in the middle of a trial for pre-meditated murder, and every dark recess of his character is being publicly broadcast in detail - he has nothing, he has lost everything. Do you really see this as him receiving sympathy and going on with his life?

JMO
If he purposely killed his child and if he was wanting to eventually get free from his wife as I suspect then about 3 of the 6 things you listed he is actually happy about.
1-free of child
2-free of wife
3-loves the attention

The way he behaves in the courtroom I suspect he is liking a lot of this attention.

The only unexpected things he didnt plan on were
A-Jail
B-Trial
C-Losing everything

All JMO of course

 

[GA_Peach]

He absolutely made a call that lasted 6 minutes, one that was routed to Ms. Gray's classroom. What's missing is any evidence that he actually spoke to anyone. Ms. Gray has no reason to lie, and it makes no sense that a parent or another staff member wouldn't acknowledge taking the call.

The call doesn't make any sense in my opinion only because LE persisted in their mistaken belief he'd spoken to someone.

BBM

I agree with you on all counts. However, other non-LE witnesses testified that he was talking to someone on the phone. I am having a hard time overlooking the eyewitness testimony, which is supported by phone records. Why would someone not speak up about talking to Ross? I believe that call is significant, but since I cannot even fathom who was on the other end, I can't even come up with a theory.

ETA - Interesting thought a few posts up - Ross didn't suffer any consequences for his existing behavior(s) so why would he expect leaving Cooper in the car to be any different?

 

[Hope4More]

Nah, what Ross said was:

4:07 p.m. Meadows reads text message Harris sent her in 2013 saying that if it weren't for Cooper he would have left Leanna by now.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/ross-harr...the-ross-harris-hot-car-death-trial/459028507

Say whatever you want but this was a written text and not something the girl claimed Ross said. It's going to be very difficult for the jury to ignore this text. Laugh all you want about her mental illness but this text from Ross is hard to ignore. Cooper's dead, Ross is divorced. QED.

Read further down in that link. Her handwritten reconstruction of texts from 2013 ("I know what was said in them") were version #1, her statements to Kilgore and his investigator about that exchange put a different spin on the words.

As for my "laughing at her mental illness." Didn't, and have no intention of trying to figure out why you thought that.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Not only does that smirk get wiped off her face during cross, but, and perhaps not coincidentally, her constant sideways peeps over at RH cease as well.

Jaynie is very much not amused when Kilgore turns the Romeo and Juliette narrative inside out and has her reveal in her own voice, reading her own texts, that she was the one in angry pursuit of Ross, in her own special way, and that he was essentially done with her by the end of May. Not that they had ever hooked up. Not that he had ever stopped juggling online sexting partners, and not that he had ever indicated to her he was leaving Leanna. And not that she had ever indicated she was leaving her BF and new puppy.

Just had a thought. I wonder why Jaynie kept that particular text message from 2013? Was she keeping for blackmail against RH & LH? It was a ss of the text that she saved. The one she "recently" found on her computer. That was entered into evidence. ... Then Kilgore put the letter she gave him to give to RH. LOL that was like watching tv :silly: then she pulled out of the air somethng about they were going to be together??? And how RH would get mad at Cooper sometimes lol Kilgore in his way asked her had she ever told anyone that interviewed her that lol She said no one ever asked her... he named off names Murphy, DA and himself lol then said just trying to be truthful... (paraphrasing) and broke down in the hallway. anic: jmho

 

[popsicle]

Read further down in that link. Her handwritten reconstruction of texts from 2013 ("I know what was said in them") were version #1, her statements to Kilgore and his investigator about that exchange put a different spin on the words.

As for my "laughing at her mental illness." Didn't, and have no intention of trying to figure out why you thought that.

That is how it comes across. jmo

 

[arkansasmimi]

intersting article about how charges are decide upon---

http://wiat.com/2014/06/21/hot-car-deaths-when-and-how-parents-are-charged/

Hot car deaths: when and how parents are charged


Once police wrap up their reports and interviews, it is up to them to decide whether or not a child being left in a vehicle is a gross deviation from the expected standard of care or a tragic accident.

“They’re tired, they’re in a hurry, they’re worried about losing their job, those are all considerations that go to what was the intent of this parent when they left their child in the car and the child died,” said Sloan.

Typically, when charges are filed; such an incident results in charges of manslaughter, child abuse or criminal negligence. Charges vary based on the intent of the person responsible for the child.

Other times, says Sloan, it could be a matter of prosecutors trying to send a message.

“There may be a reason to pursue these, perhaps more aggressively, than in other times because there have been a number others kinds of incidents and it’s important for people to understand you can’t do this.”

Sloan says unless the state legislature decides to pass a law, how and whether parents are charged will continue to be on a case-by-case-basis.

Once police wrap up their reports and interviews, it is up to them to decide whether or not a child being left in a vehicle is a gross deviation from the expected standard of care or a tragic accident.
From your post/article. :thinking: yet that didn't happen here in this case.
Heck in this case, the Supervisor did not even write a report until prompted (after he got a promotion and left the unit) and then a few days later (appears took those few days later to review other peoples reports) 8/2015. Testified got busy and forgot.

 

[Hope4More]

BBM

I agree with you on all counts. However, other non-LE witnesses testified that he was talking to someone on the phone. I am having a hard overlooking the eyewitness testimony, which is supported by phone records. Why would someone not speak up about talking to Ross? I believe that call is significant, but since I cannot even fathom who was on the other end, I can't even come up with a theory.

Imagine yourself at that scene. You're there to eat lunch or run an errand. You hear screaming and run towards the commotion. What you see is horrific- a baby is lying on the pavement, and someone is trying to do CPR on him. Another man is yards away, screaming-" what have I done? Oh my God, I've killed my son. "

He's holding a phone as he screams, he's holding the phone when he "calms down" and he's still holding the phone when he screams again. And he's holding the phone to his ear for much of the time.

Wouldn't the average eyewitness assume he was talking on the phone? Especially since no matter how much their eyes are drawn to him, there is a dead baby on the ground, a crowd gathering, LE cars arriving , all in a span of very few minutes.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Imagine yourself at that scene. You're there to eat lunch or run an errand. You hear screaming and run towards the commotion. What you see is horrific- a baby is lying on the pavement, and someone is trying to do CPR on him. Another man is yards away, screaming-" what have I done? Oh my God, I've killed my son. "

He's holding a phone as he screams, he's holding the phone when he "calms down" and he's still holding the phone when he screams again. And he's holding the phone to his ear for much of the time.

Wouldn't the average eyewitness assume he was talking on the phone? Especially since no matter how much their eyes are drawn to him, there is a dead baby on the ground, a crowd gathering, LE cars arriving , all in a span of very few minutes.

You know what I can't believe.... that there are no cell phone videos from any bystanders! Heck wonder what National Enquirer would pay for those?

And Folgia and Gallimore, well she just rammed her patrol car into his patrol car rear end.

 

[GA_Peach]

Imagine yourself at that scene. You're there to eat lunch or run an errand. You hear screaming and run towards the commotion. What you see is horrific- a baby is lying on the pavement, and someone is trying to do CPR on him. Another man is yards away, screaming-" what have I done? Oh my God, I've killed my son. "

He's holding a phone as he screams, he's holding the phone when he "calms down" and he's still holding the phone when he screams again. And he's holding the phone to his ear for much of the time.

Wouldn't the average eyewitness assume he was talking on the phone? Especially since no matter how much their eyes are drawn to him, there is a dead baby on the ground, a crowd gathering, LE cars arriving , all in a span of very few minutes.

Perhaps. However, the testimony was not that Ross was screaming while he was on the phone. The testimony was that he was talking on the phone.

For me, if I saw a person frantically acting out/screaming on the phone, I would not describe that as having a conversation with someone. But that's me when I am not in the middle of an immensely chaotic situation. However, since I am not a witness in this case what I would do is irrelevant.

ETA - I have doubted quite a bit of testimony in this case, but this testimony has been corroborated by both eyewitness accounts and phone records.

 

[PaperDoll]

I've listened 7 times and still can't understand what receipt he threw away and they retrieved in the holding cell.

Publix receipt

 

[arkansasmimi]

I've listened 7 times and still can't understand what receipt he threw away and they retrieved in the holding cell.

Publix, the store where he and Alex/Winston went to lunch. IIRC it is near the CF and area of LAA. That is what I got from that. Plus it would have time on it.

Edit, yes that would be it, they are saying that that should have jogged his memory, especially when he was in area 2 places then returned to his vehicle to put light bulbs in. JMHO
<<<<< is correct I incorrectly posted prior circle the HD by LAA which was not the store. Nor is it the Treehouse

 

[Hope4More]

That is how it comes across. jmo

But.....not. I don't even know if she IS mentally ill, fgs, or if she was back then and isn't now, or whatever. I found her attitude on the stand obnoxious and rude, think she felt jilted and "betrayed" and is getting even, and don't find her credible in the slightest. None of that has anything to do with laughing at her. I don't find her amusing at all, actually.

 

[MsMarple]

Read further down in that link. Her handwritten reconstruction of texts from 2013 ("I know what was said in them") were version #1, her statements to Kilgore and his investigator about that exchange put a different spin on the words.

As for my "laughing at her mental illness." Didn't, and have no intention of trying to figure out why you thought that.

Oh for FFS - the text is the text is the text. Ross texted this: if it weren't for Cooper he would have left Leanna by now. And you want to interpret it as what? That maybe he mighta sorta kinda meant something else? Cooper's dead, Ross is divorced. Goal accomplished.

Yesterday you were talking about how Kilgore managed to discredit JM's statement - based on his getting her to admit her medical issue was a mental health one. Yay, go team Kilgore.

 

[PaperDoll]

I'm now watching the video on Ross and Leanna, and I do believe Ross is genuinely crying, BUT, I think it's because he is now realizing he's being charged and regrets what he did to Cooper. I believe he planned this but not sure when. He may have planned it that very morning but planned it none-the-less. Going back to listening..

 

[AuntB]

Can we talk about manipulation?

I don't know much about manipulation, so was wondering whether anyone else thinks Ross' suicidal talk could be a way to manipulate LH? Not that she acted mad at him, but it could be a good way to stop her from saying anything negative to him (for fear of pushing him over the edge) right? Or maybe that's not manipulation. I really want to know.

 

[Hope4More]

Perhaps. However, the testimony was not that Ross was screaming while he was on the phone. The testimony was that he was talking on the phone.

For me, if I saw a person frantically acting out/screaming on the phone, I would not describe that as having a conversation with someone. But that's me when I am not in the middle of an immensely chaotic situation. However, since I am not a witness in this case what I would do is irrelevant.

ETA - I have doubted quite a bit of testimony in this case, but this testimony has been corroborated by both eyewitness accounts and phone records.

I give up . The speaking with someone part is NOT corroborated, and the point of having you imagine the scene was to convey how easy it would be for an eyewitness to make assumptions.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously problematic, even in situations far less traumatic and chaotic. If you review what eyewitnesses have testified to, look up the one many here thought most credible, who said she assumed that RH was speaking on the phone, thought it might be his wife, and thought it odd he was screaming.

 

[ScotAng]

<<<<rsbm>>>>
Then when Stoddard talked about how his actions caused Cooper's death, neither parent reacted in the least - it was all business. Ross responded to all of what you posted by asking Stoddard how long he's been in LE and telling him he appreciates the "courtesy?" I can't wrap my head around that.

This really, really got to me. To the extent I've watched it umpteen times. I realised RH thought he was going home when Stoddard hands him pen/paper to write down some numbers. When Stoddard leaves for a few seconds, tension eases. RH says to LH he 'can't even get the car, they towed it'. Leanna tells him hers is at the tree house. They both tense and grasp hands when they realise the significance of writing down those numbers. Then he asks what the next steps are. For him.

I waited on them asking where Cooper was. During RH's interviews with LE, I willed him to ask where his little boy might be now. Just like I willed him to knock on the door and demand to know what was going on when he was left alone in the room. When he did knock that door, I was deflated that it was to use the rest room.

No way of knowing what LH asked LE when on her own. Together though, they didn't even touch on what happened to Cooper, wonder where he might have been taken to, even hoping someone was 'looking after' him. As bereaved parents do. As many bereaved do even when the loss isn't a child. They did talk about him having had a sausage biscuit when he fell asleep though. Not forgetting the little chat - in between telling and agreeing with him he was a great father - when she asked if they can have another child. Just like that.

God give me strength. <Self mod-snip.> There is something very, very, wrong here, and not just with him.

 

[AuntB]

I'm now watching the video with Ross and Leanna, and I do believe Ross is genuinely crying, BUT, I think it's because he is now realizing he's being charged and regrets what he did to Cooper. I believe he planned this but not sure when. He may have planned it that very morning but planned it none-the-less. Going back to listening..

I agree that he's really crying with Leanna... crying for himself. As he describes throughout the tape, he is pretty upset about being arrested, the uncomfortable bed, fear of losing his job, etc. It's the behavior earlier while he's alone that seems fake to me because he doesn't have the runny nose/sniffles when he's "crying" alone, but the runny nose is obvious when he's crying with Leanna.