Trial - Ross Harris #9

[katydid23]

Are these "triggers" a guarantee to elicit a memory from everyone, all of the time, in every kind of circumstances?

No, but the more there are, in such a short time from the 'memory lapse', the greater likelihood one's memory would be triggered. And Dr Diamond spoke about that in other cases where clients memories were triggered and they ran screaming to the car to try and save their dead children. [ Baby RayRay was one example linked upthread somewhere.]

And imo, after reading a dozen cases of FBS, this particular case does not fit the scenario.

People say that it only 'takes a second' to forget. But that has to be taken into context. In other cases, there are a few things that add to the likelihood of the FBS kicking in.

Undue Stress, fatigue, sudden Change in Routine, and the time needed to forget and to create a false memory, to replace the reality.

I don't see that Ross had all of that. How stressed was he that he takes the baby to sit down breakfast, researches a cruise for his wife and himself, has 7 women to engage in conversation, goes to lunch, leaves work early for a movie, etc. How tired is he if he didn't just go home after work instead? And it was not a change of routine. He drove him to DC almost every day. And he often took him through the drive thru of CFA before dropping him off, so I don't buy that sudden change of routine= 'automatic lapse' in memory scenario here.

Within that first 40 seconds, how does he erase Cooper's presence from his memory bank and create a new false memory, all while there are memory clues surrounding him. And while he is having an ongoing conversation about needing a break from him. I just don't think it is possible. In the other cases there is a much longer drive, and the parent has time to be lulled into a new reality. They would have time to get into deep thoughts and then have a lapse and a false memory created in it's place.

But in 40 seconds, while his day care is visible in the rear view mirror, and the baby's seat is inches away, and he is reading the text from the woman, saying she needed a break from family duties? IO just have a really hard time accepting that he innocently forgot. It is MORE likely, in my jaded opinion, that he just decided to pull the trigger that day and make a bold ugly move for freedom and a new life.

 

[katydid23]

I think you missed my point. I do like posting with you so I'll ask you a question. Do you think this jury will convict RH with Malice murder? That's the most important charge in my opinion and the one that will define this case.

Probably not. I think he probably did do it with malice, but spontaneously so. But I would not vote GUILTY on those charges most likely, at this point. The small possibility that he did not do it on purpose would prevent me from doing so.

But I would vote for CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE ---- if the jury instructions allowed for it , that is.

 

[Rayemonde]

But if my 3 yr old was in the bath tub, then I doubt I would forget he was in there. I might grab a fresh towel from the hall closet, but I would not forget my boy was in a vulnerable, dangerous place.

A young mum killed her 14-month-old baby daughter by leaving her alone in the bath and forgetting where she was - a court has heard.

A jury was told Jasmine Gregory had been told by a support worker just hours earlier not to leave children alone in the bath.

Prosecutors say the 24-year-old had become 'distracted' and was doing the washing up while Robyn Andrews-English drowned in the bathtub.

Gregory denies manslaughter and child neglect at Oxford Crown Court.

The court was told Gregory had been seen running out of her home and asking passers-by where her daughter was on August 7, 2014.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...rol&service=responsive&0p19G=c&service=tablet

 

[Rayemonde]

Another one:

A 27-year-old Hartford mother who was charged in connection with the death of her 1-year-old son, forgot the baby in a tub with the water running, according to court documents released Friday.

The child, Antonio Armando Delgado Jr., was found unconscious in the bathtub on Elmer Street in July, just four days after his first birthday, and later died.

His mother, Tamara Santana, has been charged with second-degree manslaughter, criminal negligent homicide and reckless endangerment.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcc...33211.html?amp=y?client=ms-android-sonymobile

 

[Rayemonde]

Another. None of these people were suspected of intentional murder.

According to the Examiner's report, the mother told officers that she was bathing her two infant children while she had some food in the oven.

She told police that she removed one of the children from the tub when the smoke alarm went off. She said she went to the kitchen, silenced the alarm and began fanning the smoke from the room.

She told detectives that she forgot her daughter was in the running tub and left her alone for 10 to 15 minutes.

When she returned to the bathroom, she found Aaliyah face up and unresponsive in the tub.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wisn.r...-minutes/6329092?client=ms-android-sonymobile

Another:

Pamblanco left the infant in a bathtub Aug. 22, 2013, to answer the door and then forgot about the child while she sat down and talked to a friend. When her husband came in from the mowing the lawn about 10 minutes later, he found the child’s lifeless body in the overflowing tub.

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/sto...-gets-15-years-babys-bath-drowining/71478512/

 

[SuzDuJour]

He did remember to grab his coffee cup from CFA, that he bought with his son in his arms, moments before arriving at work...

 

[katydid23]

Another. None of these people were suspected of intentional murder.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wisn.r...-minutes/6329092?client=ms-android-sonymobile

Another:



http://www.theleafchronicle.com/sto...-gets-15-years-babys-bath-drowining/71478512/

I am not saying that they were INTENTIONAL. I don't know the situations or back stories of the people involved. But if you leave a 12 month old baby in the tub and walk away, that is serious grounds for CRIMINAL NEGLECT. jmo

 

[katydid23]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...rol&service=responsive&0p19G=c&service=tablet

Looks like Grandma does not believe this mum's story:

A TODDLER who drowned in a bathtub after her 'deceitful' mother deserted her became frightened of lying in the water, jurors have been told.

Jasmine Gregory was today branded a liar by her daughter's grandmother after jurors at Oxford Crown Court heard the child died following the tragedy in a bath at her Grove home...

"I find Jasmine to be manipulative, deceitful and untruthful."

Gregory, now of Ulfgar Road, Oxford, denies manslaughter and cruelty to a person under 16 years.

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/14...eserted_her_was_scared_of_water__court_hears/


How can you 'FORGET' a 12 month old in the tub? You are not even supposed to step away from them for even a second? I can maybe believe stepping away from a 4 yr old, because they are able to sit up and stay above water , for the most part. Though even 4 yr olds can quickly drown in a tub. But a one year old? They should not be forgotten because you should not even walk out of the bathroom.

 

[katydid23]

Another one:



https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcc...33211.html?amp=y?client=ms-android-sonymobile

This woman deserves jail time, imo. That was totally criminally negligent:



His mother, Tamara Santana, has been charged with second-degree manslaughter, criminal negligent homicide and reckless endangerment.

According to court documents, Santana told police she took a shower and then washed her 1-year-old in the shower with her, before placing the boy on the floor of the tub and getting out to dry herself off. She told officers she then walked out of the bathroom and checked Facebook for about 5 minutes. It was then that she told police she heard water running and ran back into the bathroom to find the baby face down in the water, according to court documents.


Source: Mom Charged in Child's Death Left Baby in Tub: Court Documents | NBC Connecticut http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/...Appears-in-Court-330433211.html#ixzz4PDnK0gna
Follow us: @nbcconnecticut on Twitter | NBCConnecticut on Facebook


I would vote GUILTY on reckless endangerment and manslaughter. jmo

 

[katydid23]

Another. None of these people were suspected of intentional murder.


Another:

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/sto...-gets-15-years-babys-bath-drowining/71478512/

CLARKSVILLE, Tenn. – A Clarksville woman was sentenced Monday to 15 years in prison in the 2013 drowning death of her infant daughter, Abigail.

"Judge John Gasaway sentenced Nicole Pamblanco to the minimum sentence allowed under state law for aggravated child neglect and criminally negligent homicide in the Aug. 22, 2013, bathtub drowning of her daughter.

She could have faced 15 to 25 years on the aggravated child neglect charge. Gasaway sentenced her to 15 years on that charge and one year on the criminally negligent homicide charge. Both sentences will be served concurrently, meaning at the same time. Pamblanco will have to serve 70 percent of her sentence before being eligible for parole, said Assistant District Attorney Kimbery Lund, who prosecuted the case"


Looks like this^^^ mom got a pretty hefty sentence for that negligent manslaughter charge. I don't really care if it was accidental or not. Her negligence ended her baby's short life. Who walks away from an infant in the tub?

And she left the baby to answer the door, yet her husband was outside mowing the lawn? Why didn't she let him answer the door and she stay with a vulnerable infant in a tub full of water.

 

[Rayemonde]

Looks like Grandma does not believe this mum's story:

A TODDLER who drowned in a bathtub after her 'deceitful' mother deserted her became frightened of lying in the water, jurors have been told.

Jasmine Gregory was today branded a liar by her daughter's grandmother after jurors at Oxford Crown Court heard the child died following the tragedy in a bath at her Grove home...

"I find Jasmine to be manipulative, deceitful and untruthful."

Gregory, now of Ulfgar Road, Oxford, denies manslaughter and cruelty to a person under 16 years.

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/14...eserted_her_was_scared_of_water__court_hears/


How can you 'FORGET' a 12 month old in the tub? You are not even supposed to step away from them for even a second? I can maybe believe stepping away from a 4 yr old, because they are able to sit up and stay above water , for the most part. Though even 4 yr olds can quickly drown in a tub. But a one year old? They should not be forgotten because you should not even walk out of the bathroom.

I know, but there are countless parents who do these things, despite knowing the risks... It makes them negligent, selfish, irresponsible people and they deserve to be harshly punished, but it doesn't mean that they intentionally murdered their baby. Many responsible, committed parents on websleuths find it impossible to believe RH could forget his son, but there are plenty of substandard parents who *are* capable of forgetting their kid a few seconds after leaving them in the bathtub, or after they buckle them into their carseat. Plus there's still the theory that RH left Cooper in the car on purpose but intended to return after a few minutes, then forgot... That would make him neglectful and he should be harshly punished for it, but it would not mean that he meant to kill Cooper.

ETA don't get me wrong, I think these people deserve to go to prison for a long time. But for neglect and manslaughter, not for premeditated murder.

 

[katydid23]

Another.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wisn.r...-minutes/6329092?client=ms-android-sonymobile

l]

This one ^^ seems like a tragic accident. She is bathing the babies, smoke alarm goes off, sees smoke in the kitchen from burning food---tries to deal with that EMERGENCY---totally understandable she might forget about her other baby.

I would give her a pass. And unlike the other 3 examples, this woman did not seem to have been charged with a crime. I think that was the right call.

 

[katydid23]

I know, but there are countless parents who do these things, despite knowing the risks... It makes them negligent, selfish, irresponsible people and they deserve to be harshly punished, but it doesn't mean that they intentionally murdered their baby. Many responsible, committed parents on websleuths find it impossible to believe RH could forget his son, but there are plenty of substandard parents who *are* capable of forgetting their kid a few seconds after leaving them in the bathtub, or after they buckle them into their carseat. Plus there's still the theory that RH left Cooper in the car on purpose but intended to return after a few minutes, then forgot... That would make him neglectful and he should be harshly punished for it, but it would not mean that he meant to kill Cooper.

ETA don't get me wrong, I think these people deserve to go to prison for a long time. But for neglect and manslaughter, not for premeditated murder.

Right. We are mostly in agreement. :wink:

I think Ross deserves to do a lot of prison time because of his negligence. I don't think the State has proven premeditation. But I still believe in my gut that he did do it impulsively, purposely. But I would not be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt at this time.

 

[arkansasmimi]

I'm just as nosy, or nosier, even, because it's just this kind of thing that brings out the sleuther in me. .

I'm going to keep trying to figure out why Dr. Diamond didn't testify, whether it not it's even possible to ever know

Before I go diving way down in that rabbit hole, a guess that takes into account that the DT had finally just been given the FBI materials.
-----------

I think that a key part of Diamond's testimony would have been what Brewer tried to get in but couldn't support: that this case was similar to other cases in which parents had in fact accidentally left their child in a hot car.

What we know: we know Diamond interviewed RH. We know RH told Diamond his account of what happened on June 18. We know the DT wanted to be able to have Diamond testify about what Ross told him without Ross having to take the stand. We know that the State wanted Staley to rule that Diamond could not. We know that the State did not receive Diamond's notes until trial began, and that the DT did not receive the FBI materials until Tuesday (correct day?).

We know that the FBI materials are in some way related to Dr. Diamond, and are likely articles/reports that he has written. We know that as late as Wednesday it was anticipated that both Thursday and Friday would be full trial days, but neither were. We know that Kilgore spoke to RH on Sunday about whether or not he'd testify. We know that Kilgore had no reason to believe Staley would rule in the DT's favor that RH's statements could be introduced unless RH took the stand.

We know Diamond could have testified about anything other than what Ross told him, but that he wasn't put on the stand. We're pretty sure the DT thought Diamond's testimony would be at least very important, if not crucial. We know that the State would have been limited in cross to what Kilgore had elicited in direct.

Why not have Diamond testify more generally on the subject of FBS , at least? Especially given the centrality of the issue of whether or not it was possible for RH to forget?

Perhaps what the defense learned after reading through the FBI materials it received on Tuesday was that Diamond had written something in an article or a report that directly countered any testimony he might give that RH's emotions, or actions, or lack of being cued, etc. were typical in hot car cases?

RBBM
11/2/16 (Wed) started out with Kilgore and Boring up with the Judge. When mics came on & on the record she asked the State if they had provided the Def with the FBI records. Boring stated "no but we will be giving them to them today". Judge said when you do please make note on the record, and that was done first thing on 11/3/16 (Thurs).

11/3/16 (Thurs)
Boring: First witness, State has no issues about, 2nd State does, goes on to tell that orig had provided a PowerPoint with 22 slides that had some issues with. Then at about 11pm rec'd new PowerPoint with additional 30 some odd slides. He has had time to review and he does have objections with a ton of those slides and issues. That will be something we will have to take up and I wouild ask after, we get done with this first witness."

Judge asked "well have yall discussed it?"(State and Defense) Maybe tell them what your objections are

Boring said Yes, I did actually yesterday sent them an email and then about 11 pm rec'd new PowerPoint with about 30 more added.uhh, well by their email they are not going to want to take their slides out". (Boring has a smirk on his face)

Judge says no problem that they can take up later

Kilgore isnt aware that they had gotten to something... and Boring said well maybe it is 59 .. Judge says no problem we can take it up later..

No doubt in my mind this was over Dr. Diamond. And after the first witness Brewer, then they have lunch and Kilgore tells the court no more witnesses today. The judge is shocked as you can see. << Courtchatter Ross Harris Trial (End of day discussion) Day 21 Part 3 11/03/1611:32 mark, after the jury is excused end of Thurs, is when Boring gives the Judge the packet of FBI stuff for her review and it is noted so that doesn't get sent back with evidence to jury. [video=youtube;NkamUj5jnuk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkamUj5jnuk&index=7&list=PLoW1SIeAWaWa1BHJdr_EpBGK-U_weQTFd[/video]

 

[arkansasmimi]

No doubt in my mind this was over Dr. Diamond. And after the first witness Brewer, then they have lunch and Kilgore tells the court no more witnesses today. The judge is shocked as you can see. << Courtchatter Ross Harris Trial (End of day discussion) Day 21 Part 3 11/03/1611:32 mark, after the jury is excused end of Thurs, is when Boring gives the Judge the packet of FBI stuff for her review and it is noted so that doesn't get sent back with evidence to jury. [video=youtube;om_6Lvs0Cv4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om_6Lvs0Cv4&index=5&list=PLoW1SIeAWaWa1BHJdr_EpBGK-U_weQTFd[/video]

 

[monkeypants]

One thing I have consistently noticed since joining ws in 2009? There ain't much sleep happening! (Morning is forever to catch up!)
But you seem like high functioning and intelligent people....just reiterates to me that RH could prob function just fine regardless of his sleep pattern that night :juggle:

 

[arkansasmimi]

Yesterday, 07:35 AM#951 MzOpinion8d http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?320660-Trial-Ross-Harris-8&p=12913892#post12913892

Quote Originally Posted by arkansasmimi View Post
The State has had to concede many errors and JMHO this was all brought to the attention (at least in front of jury) by the Defense. Then the State within days rushed and redid the figures (ea time ADA Jesse Evans was the one taking photos) Then, Grimstead again left out a measurement on his last report. This all played out in front of jury. It shows much room for reasonable doubt on any measurements taken. * When asked about the car seat to dash 10/15 & 10/16/16 there was also questions about the way orig measurment taken vs the new. This all goes towards placement and what could be see. Then you have "someone" messing with the car seat (the extension was pulled out) and this was done with the photos Grimstead took on 7/2/14, the first scans 7/8/14 of car at Crime Scene Shed, and also at the hot car reconstruction. So all those are not factual to 6/18/2014

Kilgore made the point on the Rebuttal witness that errors were made and it was left there. Kilgore wants the car seat brought back into the court room and it will be. He will no doubt point out where Cooper head was in the car seat. And the fact that the measurements in Cooper height do not match up. JMHO

** Something else that we found out on Rebuttal, the Autopsy Report was NOT admitted into evidence. I think this was stratigic by Lumkin and by Kilgore.
Lumkin read it into the record.. in front of the jury he had Dr. Frits to affirm each measurement. *on Direct that is when Evans went up and had correct the 'head' measurement... that why Evans had Stockinger to measure the doll head 11/3/2016. BUT Evans did not have the height measurements of the AR corrected. You know that Def will make an issue of this. Stoddard has made the HEAD OVER TOP OF CAR SEAT into testimony.

AR
Crown -heel 33 inches

crown-shoulder 8
shoulder-heel 23.5
31.5 inches

crown -rump 14
rump-heel 17.5
31.5

March 3, 2014 well baby check up: 2ft 7 in... 31 inches

Measurements seat to top of car seat (where butt sits to top edge of car seat per Grimstead)
19.25 inches (19 1/4 in)
-
14 inches (AR crown to rump)
5.25 inches from crown of Cooper head to the top edge of car seat. **And only 1.5 inches over the 30 inch mark not 3 inches.

There's no way there was over 5" of space from the top of Cooper's head to the top of the car seat.

Orig bbm, and color in quote ...
I agree. But these measurements are taken from what was read into the record by Lumkin and affirmed by Dr. Frist. Measurements were testified 10/12/16 as true for the car seat by Grimstead, on the dated that it was realized by him (Perry Mason moment) that all measurements were not used for the 7/2/14 photos by Grimstead and the orig 3D scans by Mr. Dustin. This is when the State decided to re do the scans and did 10/15 & 10/16/16.

The Defense has requested the car seat removed from the SUV and brought back to the court so he can use for his presentation. The State made issue that if the Jury wanted to see the car again they would have to go through going by measurements to put back into car. Judge said that if they wanted to see the car again, that there would be many things that they would have to do besides the car seat. (arrangements for towing the car back, security and so forth and would have to be something to go over in court if that came up) She agreed and they brought the car seat back to court.

Car seat is NOT my issue, it is an issue that the State and the Defense both have. My point is that this is just another issue that errors were made and that they State will have egg on their face. We did not know for fact until Friday that the Autopsy Report was NOT entered into evidence. Which to me is kinda strange. Maybe it isn't but to me it is.

 

[Bethan]

An interesting bit of trivia is that Dr Diamond locked his grandson, who died, inside his vehicle.

Thus, since that time, he has devoted himself to the FBS.

Comparitively, JRH wanted to become an advocate for SafeKids because he locked his son inside of his vehicle. I cannot buy into this FBS stuff. FBS is a convenient way for parents to relieve themselves from their own burden of fatal negligence.

The juvenile justice court judge who kept his son in a hot car while he worked at the courthouse until lunchtime had some hanky-panky going on, too. *advertiser censored*, for sure, easily comes to mind. And he killed his son on their 5th Wedding Anniversary. Dr Diamond testified in his trial that ended with an acquittal.

[video=cnn;us/2012/06/28/dnt-infant-hot-car-experiment.wspa]http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/12/living/hot-car-deaths-parenting/index.html[/video]

From this article, Dr Diamond describes an occasion when, having parked at a mall, he had forgotten his baby granddaughter was in the car also.
Fortunately his wife had not forgotten!
He goes on to say, that experts believe there are thousands of such"almost" per year.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[arkansasmimi]

Yesterday, 08:40 AM#958 yupikgirl http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?320660-Trial-Ross-Harris-8&p=12913963#post12913963
Trial - Ross Harris #8

Quote Originally Posted by MzOpinion8d View Post
There's no way there was over 5" of space from the top of Cooper's head to the top of the car seat.

Exactly. And in March he was 31 inches per medical records. His parents bought him a new seat for a reason- he was growing. He was in an infant seat. Not many parents keep their kid in the same seat they brought them home from the hospital in at 2 years old. I get that he wasn't a big child. I get using it in an emergency or until a second seat was bought- but he didn't fit it in properly and IMO he was seen. Actually IMO he was seen when he did fit the measurement guidelines of the seat. I could see my kids in an infant seat when they got bigger and still hadn't outgrown it per the manufacturer. Kids aren't flat like pancakes.
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Last edited by yupikgirl; Yesterday at 08:45 AM

Respectfully, the car seat is NOT my issue but one with both the State and Defense. JMHO from watching the full trial.

Respectfully, as noted by the State and Defense during the Charge Conference.
The car seat was not what caused the death of Cooper. But it is at issue because that is where Cooper was. It is at issue whether Cooper could be seen. Defense will bring about that the measurements do not add up. That is what the issues are. Defense has conseded that Cooper was over the 30 inch guidelines. The State witness is who gave the measurements of 19 1/4 inches from seat area where Cooper butt would be. Common sense says the 21# 5.4 oz of his weight would sink him down into the seat more than sitting a tape measure there, making the difference more 5 1/4 inch. even if just a fraction of an inch. Point is that the State witnesses are who provided these measurements. Under oath. Reasonable doubt on any of their work. Especially when the State Witness was alerted in front of the jury the error, State went and rescanned the car, then had to come back and go over this again in front of the jury. Driving home the point of careless/recklessness in their work. JMHO

 

[arkansasmimi]

Yesterday, 08:46 AM#959 yupikgirl http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?320660-Trial-Ross-Harris-8&p=12913969#post12913969
Trial - Ross Harris #8

Quote Originally Posted by LibertyandJustice4 View Post
I've seen the discrepancy with the measurements brought up a lot. I'm taking pediatrics this term and we were JUST talking in class just over a week ago how it's actually really hard to get accurate measurements on small children. There are several ways to do it, so that probably explains why there is a difference. 2" is a pretty big difference, but maybe it had to do with how the body was positioned in death.

And the detective on the stand measured the doll head exactly how you would at a pediatricians office.
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Last edited by yupikgirl; Yesterday at 09:00 AM.

Respectfully, the 2 inch discrepancy is in height not the dolls head vs Cooper head. That was a difference of about 1/2 inch. 2 different issues and measurements. JMHO from reading AR and listening to the trial.