trial thread: 04/03/2012

[swedie]

Well I can tell you this..I don't trick of treat the jehovah witness family on our street because it is known..that is not kosher to do so. Nor do I offer a smoke or a beer to my Mormon neighbours. I turn my outside lights off by 8 oclock because my closest neighbours have kids that have to sleep for school the next day. Not always, but in many small communities there are things over the years you come to know about your neighbours...not because you are nosey but because you are observant. If there is someone on our street that doesn't belong we ask them...what is your purpose here. We look out for each other and our homes. It is not a stretch to think that the community would know that that particular neighbour doesn't have tv etc. Or what time they get up in the morning or even if they wear their pajamas to the mailbox...geesh. If you don't know anything about your neighbours you should IMO as that is what community is...the coming together of people for the common good. You should know what is going on in your community and with your neighbours and copy down license plates of cars that frequent your area that dont belong there, challenge a person who is wandering in your neighbourhood and it doesnt seem right...ask them why they are there. IMO

Many of these small Mennonite communities tend to have convenient stores, which are run by Mennonites. It's not uncommon to go into these stores and chat with them. They seem to be the local reporter to others in the community, if you know what I mean. Especially with big news such a an abducted child. They would share that information with others in hopes of helping out. :moo:

 

[swedie]

so then it's down to the wire which of the "two liars" (your words not mine, just quoting them) that the jury believes...:moo:

I would obviously take the liar (maybe ex liar) who is speaking up and hope that she is telling some truths. :moo: Maybe she has found God in prison in the last three years, like many prisoners do. She swore on the bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help her God. :moo:

 

[swedie]

Will Derstine even cross examine the pathologist? I doubt it. JMO

I bet he does. It will go something like this; "was there any evidence of sexual assault?" The end.:moo:

 

[Alison]

Shop class, nailing two pieces to wood together, putting pictures up......every male I know wouldn't use the claw end of a hammer to inflict force.

The claw end is curved and would be ineffective, unless it was used in a flat position.

I would also point out that TLM claimed VS made no sounds, while all these blows reigned down upon her. I seriously doubt her statements about that.

Really? I beg to differ. Why would only males know this? I bet you TLM has used a hammer more than MR. Why you might ask? I bet during her time in Juvie she took part in workshops which are offered at places like Cecil Facer (building dog houses etc). She also grew up poor which would mean that they learned to fix there own stuff, which would mean being able to effectively use a hammer. So the whole well he is a male he knows how to effectively use a hammer defence is pretty shoddy at best and I actually find it quite offensive. At the right angle a claw can inflict force that causes substantial injury as was shown in this case.

Also Victoria could have been silent as she may have already been unconsious due to the other injuries inflicted on her before.

 

[swedie]

ugh....Im so confused....Yes you are correct....ok forget that post!!! LOL

I can't keep up with her stories/lies ....I don't know how TLM keeps it all straight

As quoted many years ago by Mark Twain. If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.

 

[Alison]

I believe TLM's testimony that she killed VS.

Even boys at the age of 5..........know which end of the hammer to use.

I reject the theory that TLM admitted that she murdered VS to help the family, or because she was under MR's spell. She didn't concern herself when lying directly to the grieving family at her sentencing. She didn't show any remorse when talking to a family member after she was sent to jail.

She was in custody and knew she was going to have to testify.

She isn't entitled to discovery of evidence, and would have no way of knowing if the hammer had ever been recovered.

She "would" know whose fingerprints would be found on the hammer.

Hers and only hers.

I believe she didn't want to have to answer questions on the hammer in open court, with no opportunity to formulate a viable answer.

She confessed for her own selfish reasons.....JMO

Well guess what? The side "she" or he used worked quite effectively as it killed VS. So I am not getting this whole male and hammer topic, and quite frankly it is quite sexist to keep insinuating not in just one but two posts that females do not know how to use a hammer. I understand that you are playing devil's advocate here, but I feel your manner is quite offensive.

I love how some people on here like to point out TLM is a liar and that we can not believe everything she says, yet many of the same people keep insisting well it must be true she must have been the one who hit VS with the hammer. I feel it is very hypocritical. Obviously she is a liar however everything she has told the courts regarding the scene and the water bottles, and about how Victoria was dressed has been true. This will play heavily on the jurors opinion about her testimony and evidence. It will also weigh in on whether they believe he sexually assaulted VS or not.

 

[swedie]

The injuries were likely caused by strong blunt force trauma spread over a broad area or a single massive compressive force.

Since the little girl’s body was found under some huge rocks, one directly on the chest, Dr. Pollanen had to try to learn if the injuries were caused before death, or after it, by the rocks.

He got lucky: His microscopic examination revealed liver microemboli in Tori’s lung – tiny fragments of liver tissue wildly out of place in the lung. It got there because the little girl was alive when she received broad blunt impacts such as punches or kicks.

That trauma to the liver, in time, would have been fatal in and of itself.

Her scalp, brain and most of her face were gone.

So science did its job, and gave the jurors a way past the horrible pictures to the useful facts.

It was silent about a person (and there is at least one), or people (there is allegedly another, Mr. Rafferty), who not only could inflict such damage upon a little girl, but who could also anticipate committing precisely such cruelty when, with the girl herself lying on the floor of their car, one or both of them first stopped at a Home Depot to pick up a hammer and garbage bags.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ford-died-but-not-how-someone-could-kill-her/

 

[swedie]

Determining sexual assault was beyond the scope of medical evidence, Pollanen said, because of the body’s decomposition.

Rafferty was seated Tuesday in the prisoner's box wearing a purple shirt — Tori's favourite colour. His clothing angered a number of the girl's family members, who have attended the trial since it began in early March.

Rafferty glanced occasionally at the screen in front of him as the autopsy photographs were presented but generally avoided looking at it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/04/03/rafferty-stafford-trial-tuesday.html

 

[swedie]

Pollanen reconstructed a polymer model of her fractured head in his lab and used a hammer to determine if it would match the wounds. He demonstrated how the claw of the hammer was consistent with the wounds on the model.

The lower part of her body was too decomposed to see if she had been sexually assaulted, he said.

The model was so small it fit his palm.

During the autopsy, two butterfly earrings, two plastic bottle caps and a broken hair clip were also found.

(McClintic had earlier said Rafferty washed himself after he raped Tori, using water from plastic bottles in the car.)

Justice Thomas Heeney had warned those in the courtroom about the nature of the evidence to be shown Tuesday, and by the end of the day there were few dry eyes. Some jurors furtively wiped tears, while others handed out tissues.

The day didn’t start well.

As Rafferty was brought into the prisoner’s box, family members’ faces fell when they saw he was wearing a purple shirt, grey suit and a striped grey and purple tie.

Purple was Tori’s favourite colour, a fact that has come up repeatedly in the past three years. Her family has usually worn purple in some way: a shirt, a tie or a ribbon.

As the first graphic photos were shown to the jury, Rodney Stafford, Tori’s father, left the court. Tara McDonald, her mother, distraught and in tears, sat through the testimony in the morning as did Tori’s grandmothers, aunts and uncles.

Rafferty either kept his eyes closed or looked upward.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/a...t-disturbing-photos-to-be-entered-as-evidence

 

[swedie]

The skeletal remains of eight-year-old Victoria (Tori) Stafford were so deteriorated that by the time police found them, more than three months after she went missing, it could not be determined if there were any signs of sexual assault, says Ontario’s top forensic pathologist.

There were a number of holes in the bag, and a small portion of her body was decomposed and exposed to the elements and animals and insects.

Also on Tuesday, the owner of the property where Stafford was found testified he remembers being “surprised” to see car tracks going up a rural laneway into his field early that spring.

“When I got the news of this incident, I did remember . . . I had seen tracks up the lane and around the stone pile and I was quite surprised to see it because it was too wet to go up there,” testified Ervin Bauman.

The cattle farmer said around the time of the disappearance, his family had been celebrating his own’s daughter’s wedding. The family usually travelled through the laneway by horse and buggy and farming tractors. His children also used the laneway as a shortcut in good weather when they went to school.

They did not use the laneway in the winter or the early spring because the ground had been too wet, he said.

McClintic told the court they were both high on drugs when the abduction and murder took place.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...-assault-forensic-pathologist/?__lsa=f803c26d

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I believe TLM's testimony that she killed VS.

Even boys at the age of 5..........know which end of the hammer to use.

I reject the theory that TLM admitted that she murdered VS to help the family, or because she was under MR's spell. She didn't concern herself when lying directly to the grieving family at her sentencing. She didn't show any remorse when talking to a family member after she was sent to jail.

She was in custody and knew she was going to have to testify.

She isn't entitled to discovery of evidence, and would have no way of knowing if the hammer had ever been recovered.

She "would" know whose fingerprints would be found on the hammer.

Hers and only hers.

I believe she didn't want to have to answer questions on the hammer in open court, with no opportunity to formulate a viable answer.

She confessed for her own selfish reasons.....JMO

You don't think that it's possible to conclude that Tory was sexually assaulted because the only evidence supporting that charge is TLM's testimony and various other circumstantial evidence, right?

Interesting that you can take TLM's word, which is also supported by circumstantial evidence, that she killed Tory, yet that is not the case when it comes to the sexual assault charge.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, yet if that is the case i don't get why is it difficult for you to understand how some people have reached the conclusion that MTR raped Tory.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I'm just wondering about Dr. Pollanen's testimony here. If it were possible that the injuries could have happened in the way proposed in the above post, wouldn't he have said so? Wouldn't the Crown have been likely to ask him that? I would have thought the Crown would ask if the injuries could have been caused in any other way, perhaps even specifically if they could have been caused while someone held her down as in the post above, because that would further their case that two people were responsible for the murder if the doctor agreed with that theory. The thing is though, this is NOT what the doctor stated. He made no mention as far as I know that anyone held her down or sat upon her as someone else gave the blows. :twocents:

I'm wondering if the doctor concluded that the ribs were not fractured as a result of someone sitting on her because the pressure to her rib cage would have been more diffuse resulting in a different fracture pattern than what would be expected when a person is kicked.

I'm also wondering if it could be inferred from the amont of blood in the lungs when the liver was damaged in relation to Tory's death therefore telling us if it occurred during the sexual assault or immediately before she died.

 

[Tugela]

If MR was completely innocent and thought TLM was babysitting (all the way to MF...ya right!), as soon as she pulled out the hammer and went nuts with it....he could have taken off and left her. The nearest OPP station is less than 5km away. But no, he stuck around to help her clean up and gave her a ride home, why would he do this if he was just an innocent bystander. I believe "good things are coming my way" was written in regards to the plan that the pair had set out to accomplish on April 8, 2009.

Because she would just say that he did it. Who would you believe? A large adult man of dubious history or the little lost teenage girl? If she did indeed go nuts and kill Tori before he could do anything then he would pretty much be stuck with the situation. He could hardly go running off to the police because no one would believe him. He would have had no choice but to help her and hope that no one found out. The other alternative would be to go to jail for the rest of his life, and being the psychopath she is, that is a scenario she could have presented to him. It is quite concievable that this was some sort of power play on her part in an attempt to control him and his affections.

In situations like that, even if you are not involved, you are guilty by association. It is hard to prove otherwise.

 

[Tugela]

One of his past girlfriends actually indicated he had a penchant for chocking and bondage. Not saying that's enough to go and rape a little girl, but it's not normal sex most people engage in.

You would be surprised. People don't talk about it in casual conversation but it is fairly common.

 

[Tugela]

I mis-spoke in an earlier post when I referred to Tori's slacks and undies. She was in fact not wearing slacks, but was wearing a skirt that day, so it would not have been necessary for her to remove it to relieve herself.

It doesnt make sense to remove the skirt to rape her, but not the top. The fact that she still had her top on makes me think that something else was going on. If Rafferty did in fact rape her you would have thought that with the size difference he would have remove all of her clothing, not just a part that wouldn't have gotten in the way otherwise. It doesn't make sense.

Removing the skirt but not the top sounds more like something a woman would do under the circumstances.

 

[snoofer]

I would if I were him just to reaffirm his testimony that he found no physical evidence of rape. He has to use every tool in his toolbox. Remember, early on in the trial, Derstine asked a police officer whether Rafferty had a criminal record and the answer was 'no'. This guy doesn't miss a trick.

..and then crown can redirect...brilliant!:moo:

 

[snoofer]

True..........but there has to be an awful lot of supporting evidence.

...ahhhh but there IS.:moo:

 

[snoofer]

Because she would just say that he did it. Who would you believe? A large adult man of dubious history or the little lost teenage girl? If she did indeed go nuts and kill Tori before he could do anything then he would pretty much be stuck with the situation. He could hardly go running off to the police because no one would believe him. He would have had no choice but to help her and hope that no one found out. The other alternative would be to go to jail for the rest of his life, and being the psychopath she is, that is a scenario she could have presented to him. It is quite concievable that this was some sort of power play on her part in an attempt to control him and his affections.

In situations like that, even if you are not involved, you are guilty by association. It is hard to prove otherwise.

....so how is that working for MTR now???:moo:
By your theory then he ended up in that way anyhow...except that he is now a zero instead of a hero. I believe that most people in that situation, especially men with regards to a child in trouble...would move heaven and earth, without regard for themselves...to help this little girl. The type of person you are describing who would not..is also the type who would do this dastardly deed IMO. Maybe the defense will come up with something to change my mind when it is their turn to present...but at this point it looks very very bad for him no matter how you slice it.

The debate about the claw end of the hammer...i think that some people are assuming the killer was only trying to bash in...are we so sure the killer was not trying to pull things out? Gulp.:moo:

 

[snoofer]

It doesnt make sense to remove the skirt to rape her, but not the top. The fact that she still had her top on makes me think that something else was going on. If Rafferty did in fact rape her you would have thought that with the size difference he would have remove all of her clothing, not just a part that wouldn't have gotten in the way otherwise. It doesn't make sense.

Removing the skirt but not the top sounds more like something a woman would do under the circumstances.

Skirt, tights and panties.:moo:

 

[~n/t~]

This was my initial thought with the description given by the Dr. of "compression." I was thinking a squeezing, like a super strong bear hug.

It will be interesting to read the news reports and see how this testimony is quoted. So far there have been several different words used. I would really like to know exactly what the Dr. said.

Salem

The rib fractures were caused by either multiple impacts or a single large force. . . "kicking, stomping, compression of the chest through crushing would be the types of mechanisms," he said.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/03/19590666.html