trial thread: 3/30/2012

[Jezbel]

Here is the sequence of tweets. She got the recess because it was requested JMO:

Yes I know I was there. I don't think she asked for a minute to formulate her story, as she had already admitted to it in January and the crown and defence would have been aware of her revelations by this point. She asked for a minute as seemed to be very emotional and crying etc, the crown then asked for the afternoon recess. Not unusual as they take a recess in the morning and afternoon.

JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

According to Randy Richmond in this video, MTR did indeed actually call someone from the vicinity of Mt. Forest on the evening of April 8, 2009 ("a cell phone call placed by the accused".)

Did he actually speak to someone? Leave a voicemail? Get no answer?

Despite TLM's one moment of co-operation with LE, in giving all those detailed sketches etc., it still took that ping from MTR's cell phone to lead LE to the location of Victoria's remains (in co-ordination with TLM's info).

I do believe LE would have eventually expanded the search grid northwards and found her without the ping, but, the ping most likely irrefutably puts him there, and it led LE to her remains that much quicker, so thank goodness for that.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/30/19573891.html

 

[antiquegirl]

Wow.........if that were true that MR never had a backseat, what were they cutting chunks out of and throwing out the window? (as per TLM)

What was he sitting on when he moved from the front seat to the back seat and had VS on his lap? (as per TLM)

I would have to think that the defense team would have talked to any of MR's friends who have been in his car. A reliable witness who would testify there was never a backseat...........would cause real problems with all of TLM's testimony.

(BBM)

No, that is incorrect. No one has said that his back seat was "always" missing. One friend posted that it was there at some point prior to the crime (although she was not sure when exactly she saw it last), but was missing after it. Another friend said she didn't notice that it was missing for quite a while because it was covered in junk. She first noticed that it was gone when she cleaned up his car for him - but this was a couple of weeks (or so) after April 8th.

I'm guessing that there will be witnesses testifying about this very question.

JMO

 

[flipflop]

Need some help with some questions..........

If there was a heavy snowfall 2 days before the abduction, was it ever established if the farm lane was plowed out before MR and TLM drove down it?

Is the farm lane wide enough to turn a car around at any point?

Were there high snowbanks along the highway?

Did MR have snow tires on his car, performance tires, or all season radials?

Is there any reference to any bathroom breaks in the hours that MR and TLM had VS with them?

Did BA give a description of the clothes MR was wearing that day?

I have read some articles that refer to 2 different drug debts. One was a drug debt that had accumulated to $400 and the other refers to JG "ripping someone off". Do we know if there was 2 debts?

There was also a reference somewhere about a statement attributed to CM about Brad/Brian was going to get beat up.........or something to that affect? Is there some connection there with the JG drug debt?

Thanks

I doubt the lane was plowed for the winter...nothing up there (no barn, house etc) no need to use it in the winter. The snow in the area was gone therefore we had no snowbanks, winter returned on April 6th, but was melting quickly

The laneway is narrow until you reach the top

 

[flipflop]

I am sorry if this is a repeat question and already discussed in detail. I just couldn't find it. Do we know who owns the house they brought Tori to that night? Just wondering if the owners have said anything, or if a relationship between them and MR or TLM has been established.

House? what house? The location where they took VS was a field with a rock pile.

 

[matou]

According to Randy Richmond in this video, MTR did indeed actually call someone from the vicinity of Mt. Forest on the evening of April 8, 2009 ("a cell phone call placed by the accused".)

Did he actually speak to someone? Leave a voicemail? Get no answer?

Despite TLM's one moment of co-operation with LE, in giving all those detailed sketches etc., it still took that ping from MTR's cell phone to lead LE to the location of Victoria's remains (in co-ordination with TLM's info).

I do believe LE would have eventually expanded the search grid northwards and found her without the ping, but, the ping most likely irrefutably puts him there, and it led LE to her remains that much quicker, so thank goodness for that.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/30/19573891.html

The cell phone pinged at about 7:47 pm or checked a voice mail at that time. When I was reading the May 15th police interview with MR, his mother came into the home around that time. Maybe the call was from his mother? JMO

OPP discovered that Rafferty had used his BlackBerry to check voice mail at 7.47 p.m., April 8, with that call pinging off a cellphone tower near Mount Forest.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86510694/TRANSCRIPT-Michael-Rafferty-interview-with-OPP-2009-05-15

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...fic-details-of-slaying-revealed-as-case-opens

 

[antiquegirl]

According to Randy Richmond in this video, MTR did indeed actually call someone from the vicinity of Mt. Forest on the evening of April 8, 2009 ("a cell phone call placed by the accused".

Did he actually speak to someone? Leave a voicemail? Get no answer?

Despite TLM's one moment of co-operation with LE, in giving all those detailed sketches etc., it still took that ping from MTR's cell phone to lead LE to the location of Victoria's remains (in co-ordination with TLM's info).

I do believe LE would have eventually expanded the search grid northwards and found her without the ping, but, the ping most likely irrefutably puts him there, and it led LE to her remains that much quicker, so thank goodness for that.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/30/19573891.html

(BBM)

I don't believe that quote from the media is particularly reliable. As of yet, the only thing we know for sure is that MTR's phone was used from that location. I don't recall hearing any evidence yet as to which one of the two actually used it. TLM has admitted that she had used MTR's phone for making drug buys, although I don't think it was mentioned when exactly.

One report said that MTR's messages were checked that day. I doubt that would be TLM doing that. Once it's established who was called from that phone on April 8th, we can possibly determine the identity of the caller.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

House? what house? The location where they took VS was a field with a rock pile.

Maybe the poster was referring to BA's house?

JMO

 

[Ardy]

(BBM)

I don't believe that quote from the media is particularly reliable. As of yet, the only thing we know for sure is that MTR's phone was used from that location. I don't recall hearing any evidence yet as to which one of the two actually used it. TLM has admitted that she had used MTR's phone for making drug buys, although I don't think it was mentioned when exactly.

One report said that MTR's messages were checked that day. I doubt that would be TLM doing that. Once it's established who was called from that phone on April 8th, we can possibly determine the identity of the caller.

JMO

I even read that it was an "incoming" call.

It is frustrating that a simple piece of information can't be reported clearly.

 

[Macright]

I would be interested in that back seat and as I said before..was it even in the car. Funny that something as small as a pair of shoes were found but no car seat. By the description of what actually was in that back seat it almost sounds as if he used it as a second home what with the extra clothes etc. MOO

 

[antiquegirl]

I even read that it was an "incoming" call.

It is frustrating that a simple piece of information can't be reported clearly.

Yeah. How inconsiderate of the media to not get every tiny detail for us! They're so thoughtless. Don't they realize how important our work here is?

:seeya:

 

[antiquegirl]

I would be interested in that back seat and as I said before..was it even in the car. Funny that something as small as a pair of shoes were found but no car seat. By the description of what actually was in that back seat it almost sounds as if he used it as a second home what with the extra clothes etc. MOO

From what I've heard, it was a real mess. My own explanation is that (a) he was a slob, (b) he was a regular attendee at a gym and needed extra clothes, and (c) he had many, many dates/girlfriends and would often spend the night and even entire week-ends at their places, requiring changes of clothing.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

Im not sure if I believe that or if he stated this as an excuse to nose around. I just have this odd picture in my head - of the daughter who punches her mother in the face, asks her boyfriend, (supposedly) who raped, helped murder and bury an 8 year old girl, to CARE for her mother.

Why would he "nose around"? He was in touch with TLM herself and she'd be a more reliable indicator of what was going on than anything Carol could provide. Their communication might have been limited because of surveillance in the centre, but she at least told him about her polygraph test. We know that MTR didn't remove his own clothes, the hair dye, or TLM's journal, so what could he have gained if it wasn't either keeping an eye on Carol for TLM's sake or to try to buy more Oxys from her?

Yes, the relationship between TLM and CM was dysfunctional and often volatile. Yet, TLM chose to go back and live with her after her last release from detention and helped her with her errands (getting food, picking up her pills, etc.). Why didn't she try to crash with a friend or attempt to live on her own with her OW benefits? I think that relationship was certainly complicated, but with CM's illness, I don't find it that unreasonable to believe that TLM would pick the least drug-addled of her friends (and one with a car!) to help her own mom. Regardless of the outcome of this trial, I don't think TLM would consider MTR to be of any threat to CM.

JMO

 

[swedie]

People will put their own spin on it because it is their interpretation of his reactions. I don't think the jury will base their verdict on his composure and actions in the prisoner box, I'm sure they will use facts and evidence presented to base their thoughts on. One of the reasons I myself have gone a few times now, not only to hear but to see the evidence and everything for myself to base my opinions off.
He did however look at pictures being shown yesterday, before they broke for lunch. As slides were being shown he would look briefly then away, either to the witness on the stand, his defence team etc, you could tell he was uncomfortable yesterday, whether that shows guilt or innocence is not for me to say and I will not base it off what he does in the prisoner box.

JMO

What actually happens during trial will determine whether or not there is a conviction and a great deal of what happens will actually depend on the accused. It is fair to say that a trial is like a play. The accused is the actor and the jury is the audience. If the accused gives a good performance, the audience applauds and the accused goes home. If the accused gives a bad performance, the audience boo's and that could easily result in the jury voting for a conviction.

Never lose sight of the fact that the prosecutor is well aware of this and, aside from presenting their case, if they can make the jury dislike the accused, that is very beneficial to the State. A jury who dislikes an accused will have no problem convicting them, so a key element is in the demeanor of the accused and how they come across to the jury.

Now, as I said, the demeanor of the accused will have a great deal to do with the entire case and that includes how the accused dresses, how they act sitting at the defense table, and how they testify.

Aside from dress, the most important discussion will be how the accused should act. When you are sitting at the defense table, sit calmly, with your feet on the floor in front of you and your hands on the table. Yes, you can make notes, but do not lean back in your seat with your legs crossed. That could easily send a message to the jury that you just don't seem to care. Never lose sight of the fact that most people sitting on a jury will watch the accused carefully, looking for some hint as to whether they are guilty or not, or even whether they like them or not.

When the jury is seated, look at them occasionally, but all of them. Do not pick one and do not simply sit there staring at them. When someone is on the witness stand, look at them and also either the prosecutor or defense attorney, whoever might be questioning them. Do not sit there with a staring gaze at the witness, especially when they are testifying for the State. That can easily give the appearance that you are trying to intimidate them. Show no reaction whatsoever to any evidence or testimony. In other words, if the child accuser is testifying, regardless of what they say or how ridiculous it may sound, do not make facial expressions of disbelief. Any reaction you make can easily be misinterpreted by they jury.

http://www.allencowling.com/clienttrial.htm

HTH

 

[Salem]

Im not sure if I believe that or if he stated this as an excuse to nose around. I just have this odd picture in my head - of the daughter who punches her mother in the face, asks her boyfriend, (supposedly) who raped, helped murder and bury an 8 year old girl, to CARE for her mother.

I think he agreed to hang out with CM for the drugs. JMO but otherwise I can't see why he would put himself out.....

Salem

 

[swedie]

I would be interested in that back seat and as I said before..was it even in the car. Funny that something as small as a pair of shoes were found but no car seat. By the description of what actually was in that back seat it almost sounds as if he used it as a second home what with the extra clothes etc. MOO

I won't be surprised to hear that the LE officers who paid MR a visit at his mother's house, looked in the car before or after the recorded interview and that is why they are so adamant the seat was in the car, at least up until May 15th. :moo: Funny how his car went "poof" right after that interview. At least for the weekend. MR probably went back to a car wash again and disposed of the seat ASAP. :moo:

 

[Ardy]

Yeah. How inconsiderate of the media to not get every tiny detail for us! They're so thoughtless. Don't they realize how important our work here is?

:seeya:

LOL.......point taken.......sometimes I forget the jury isn't listening to the reporters..........just we are.

 

[antiquegirl]

I won't be surprised to hear that the LE officers who paid MR a visit at his mother's house, looked in the car before or after the recorded interview and that is why they are so adamant the seat was in the car, at least up until May 15th. :moo: Funny how his car went "poof" right after that interview. At least for the weekend. MR probably went back to a car wash again and disposed of the seat ASAP. :moo:

(BBM)

They were? Do you have a link for this, please? TIA

 

[flipflop]

Why would he "nose around"? He was in touch with TLM herself and she'd be a more reliable indicator of what was going on than anything Carol could provide. Their communication might have been limited because of surveillance in the centre, but she at least told him about her polygraph test. We know that MTR didn't remove his own clothes, the hair dye, or TLM's journal, so what could he have gained if it wasn't either keeping an eye on Carol for TLM's sake or to try to buy more Oxys from her?

Yes, the relationship between TLM and CM was dysfunctional and often volatile. Yet, TLM chose to go back and live with her after her last release from detention and helped her with her errands (getting food, picking up her pills, etc.). Why didn't she try to crash with a friend or attempt to live on her own with her OW benefits? I think that relationship was certainly complicated, but with CM's illness, I don't find it that unreasonable to believe that TLM would pick the least drug-addled of her friends (and one with a car!) to help her own mom. Regardless of the outcome of this trial, I don't think TLM would consider MTR to be of any threat to CM.

JMO

To find out if LE had been there for a visit, what they said, what they asked, what they did, what they removed - if anything. His communication was limited with TLM, he would have been a pretty nervous sitting duck with TLM in detention...., IMO MR had a great interest in nosing around CM's place. This is all just my opinion!!!

Im sure we will hear of several other people who he talked to about the case....he was nosing around everywhere trying to find out what everyone thought and knew about the case. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

To find out if LE had been there for a visit, what they said, what they asked, what they did, what they removed - if anything. His communication was limited with TLM, he would have been a pretty nervous sitting duck with TLM in detention...., IMO MR had a great interest in nosing around CM's place. This is all just my opinion!!!

Im sure we will hear of several other people who he talked to about the case....he was nosing around everywhere trying to find out what everyone thought and knew about the case. JMO

I hear you and it makes sense, but why didn't he take away his own clothes and anything else that linked him to her - especially that incriminating journal? Surely he had a right to take his clothes back, at least. He had six weeks to do so. That doesn't sound like someone all that nervous to me.

I wonder if the "nosy neighbours" will be called to the stand. There's been no report of them attending the trial. I did see the two women at Tori's memorial service (in the video; I wasn't there) and they have a stake in this - the reward. I somehow doubt that CM will ... even if she's well enough ... she would not make for a very reliable witness, IMHO.

JMO