trial thread: 3/30/2012

[OhSoCurious]

:goodpost:

I'm sorry, but it would be of GREAT comfort to me to know that a sexual assault HADN'T occurred if it were my child.
Likewise, it would make a WORLD of difference to the accused if we find out a sexual assault never took place. Imagine yourself being accused of such a horrible crime if it didn't happen, being labelled a sexual deviant. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't take comfort in the fact that the majority of the public wanted to see you dead because of the false accusation of a vengeful, psychotic teenager. :notgood:

MOO

 

[OhSoCurious]

Some people that have followed this case from day one almost need to have it come out during the trial that Tori was in fact NOT sexually assaulted by MR. It might even be what some folks hold onto and hang in for. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

I found this article which states when the officers showed up at MR's mother's house on May 15/09 to question him, LE did notice his car had no back seat. So he must have gotten rid of it before May 15th. After this visit he got paranoid LE were onto his and so IMO he was calling auto wreckers looking for another back seat. I'm really curious as to why he was calling rental agencies. Was he planning on taking off, was he planning on hiding his car, abandoning it. Maybe he wanted to use a rental car to take and dispose of his car seat, thinking he couldn't use his own as the police would be tracking his car? Or LE tracking him period. (just a guess he may have hid his car seat in a shed or dumped it in an obvious place, apartment or business dumpster) We'll have to wait until Chapter 10: The May 15 weekend and Rafferty's actions. MOO

Police questioned Rafferty May 15 and noticed his Honda Civic seemed similar to the one in the video, but had no back seat. After the interview, police later learned, Rafferty spent the weekend contacting auto wreckers and rental agencies about getting another car. He also went to Masonville Place in London to get a new BlackBerry.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-murder-trial-gets-underway

(RSBM)

I believe that this line from The Sun was another journalistic error (of which we've seen so many). Had those OPP officers noticed that the back seat was not there on May 15th, they would have done something immediately. Instead, they waited for the next day to send someone to photograph the car and ended up missing it because it was gone for the week-end. <modsnip>

<modsnip>.

JMO

 

[swedie]

I'm sorry, but it would be of GREAT comfort to me to know that a sexual assault HADN'T occurred if it were my child.
Likewise, it would make a WORLD of difference to the accused if we find out a sexual assault never took place. Imagine yourself being accused of such a horrible crime if it didn't happen, being labelled a sexual deviant. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't take comfort in the fact that the majority of the public wanted to see you dead because of the false accusation of a vengeful, psychotic teenager. :notgood:

MOO

No one wants to think something this disgusting could happen to their baby, but it happens and in this case if the sexual assault happened, which IMHO I believe it did, I would take comfort knowing the evidence shows that, and the accused wouldn't get off of the charge. That would be of comfort yes. HTH

You asked me to imagine so I will try and I will give you MHO. Respectfully I cannot imagine because I highly doubt I will ever find myself in a situation such as MR. First off, I am a law abiding citizen, I don't have friends who are psychotic, druggies, gangsta wannabes, my friends all grew up in decent homes with parents who cared about them and loved them. I hung around with (chum with) people who are hard working, family oriented, who have good morals and values. I have numerous friends who I met over 50 years ago, which I still consider wonderful, decent friends. Birds of a feather flock together. You are who your friends are. :moo:

MR put himself in this situation and he has no one to blame but himself. His past doesn't look too convincing that he had decent moral or values. We now know he is a huge liar, even lying to LE, he was a druggie, possible dealer, used women to serve his own purpose. He wasn't looking for a serious relationship IMHO because someone seeking a serious relationship doesn't jump from one woman to the next while having how many others on the side line in secrecy. To me that does not show good morals. The fact that he was having sex with a female ten years his junior, within hours is highly questionable also. Sounds like he spent more years not working then working, and mooching off of his mother and friends. He sabotaged his mothers relationship with her boyfriend. IMHO I do not believe MR is being falsely accused. Time will tell and the truth will be known. Maybe not all answers will be answered, but the most important ones will be. All just my own opinion.

At this time we know MR, in his car, transported Tori from the nursing home parking lot with TLM present to Guelph to Mount Forest, where Tori was beaten, tortured, possibly sexually assaulted and brutally murdered. HTH.

Put yourself in Tori's parents shoes, how would you feel if Tori was your beloved beautiful eight year old daughter. I would rather look at it from their view point, as Tori was more a victim then MR will ever be. Again, :moo: and HTH

 

[Ardy]

If there was any evidence or statements from people who knew MR, that he was a sexual deviant..............I must have missed them.

 

[OhSoCurious]

What Chapter do they bring up the assault evidence in the trial again?

 

[dilbert]

Put yourself in Tori's parents shoes, how would you feel if Tori was your beloved beautiful eight year old daughter. I would rather look at it from their view point, as Tori was more a victim then MR will ever be. Again, :moo: and HTH

I certainly know how I'd feel if I were in Tori's parents shoes and read that someone wrote it would be of little comfort to know whether she was sexually assaulted or not. I wouldn't feel too happy about that at all.

MOO

 

[Ardy]

A lot of fine upstanding priests, ministers, army base commanders, highly regarded hockey coaches and football coaches, mothers who drown their children, and plenty of others challenge that theory.

Monsters come in all shapes and sizes, all kinds of backgrounds, both genders, and can be invisible to the people around them.

MR could be such a monster, but as of today, I have seen or heard nothing that would indicate it would be fair to label him a sexual deviant.

That of course could change over the course of this trial.

 

[Alethea Dice]

No one wants to think something this disgusting could happen to their baby, but it happens and in this case if the sexual assault happened, which IMHO I believe it did, I would take comfort knowing the evidence shows that, and the accused wouldn't get off of the charge. That would be of comfort yes. HTH

IF the sexual assault happened, certainly one would want the evidence to show that so that the accused doesn't get off on the charge. But, as a parent, I would prefer that the assault didn't happen at all. So far, we've seen no hard evidence regarding a sexual assault, nothing other than TLM's story. Of course, this could all change during the course of the trial. We won't know until it happens.

 

[snoofer]

April 8th - May 15th is a long time to go around with that back seat which could hold DNA from Tori so I would doubt that the seat was in the car when they did their interview on the 15th of May. If he was throwing things out from the start and if what TLM says is somewhat the truth, about cutting out pieces of it why would he have not have got rid of the seat after the deed was done.. ( if as I have posted, the seat was actually in the car on April 8th. also if what TLM has said to have any truth to it.. he also "took" little Tori in the front seat so that should hold some DNA.

it was dark, it would ruin the buzz and it would be easier to do that in the day light as it is no easy chore???? IMO

 

[swedie]

If MR was an innocent bystander as his defense claims, and TLM asked him to walk away so she could talk to Tori and/or Tori was so afraid of MR, why would he have to drive that long distance down that laneway? To me it's blindingly obvious. It wasn't TLM who wanted him to drive down there, it was his plan. He wanted to rape Tori somewhere secluded where no one would hear Tori scream or see what he was doing to her.

It does not make sense they would find a secluded spot just so TLM could talk to Tori, totally absurd IMO. MR could have stopped anywhere along a road or just at the beginning of the path so TLM could have a talk with Tori, even if she had to tinkle and needed privacy. I say hogwash, and the only other excuse someone would dream up would be utterly ridiculous. MOO

I'm sure the Crown will make this obvious to the jury when they go to Tori's death site and/or in their closing arguments. JMHO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I'm sorry, but it would be of GREAT comfort to me to know that a sexual assault HADN'T occurred if it were my child.
Likewise, it would make a WORLD of difference to the accused if we find out a sexual assault never took place. Imagine yourself being accused of such a horrible crime if it didn't happen, being labelled a sexual deviant. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't take comfort in the fact that the majority of the public wanted to see you dead because of the false accusation of a vengeful, psychotic teenager. :notgood:

MOO

I certainly hope it didn't happen either. However, why would TLM have a conscience enough to recant who killed Tori but not recant the rape. The only reason I can think why she might be blaming MR for the rape is that she is looking for revenge against men for her own sexual abuse she suffered as a child, an abuse that was likely never dealt with properly by authorities. Or that she herself raped Tori and has blocked it out because it's so unthinkable to her that she would do this. Or, third reason is that she didn't recant because MR really did sexually abuse Tori.

 

[OhSoCurious]

If MR was an innocent bystander as his defense claims, and TLM asked him to walk away so she could talk to Tori and/or Tori was so afraid of MR, why would he have to drive that long distance down that laneway? To me it's blindingly obvious. It wasn't TLM who wanted him to drive down there, it was his. He wanted to rape Tori somewhere secluded where no one would see or hear Tori scream or see what he was doing to her.

It does not make sense they would find a secluded spot just so TLM could talk to Tori, totally absurd IMO. MR could have stopped anywhere along a road or just at the beginning of the path so TLM could have a talk with Tori, even if she had to tinkle and needed privacy. I say hogwash, and the only other excuse someone would dream up would be utterly ridiculous. MOO

I'm sure the Crown will make this obvious to the jury when they go to Tori's death site and/or in their closing arguments. JMHO

Who is to say what is absurd when listening to the remarks of a lifetime criminal/liar? Who is to say what is deemed as ridiculous when stories are changed by this liar? <modsnip> that it was likely TLM's plan to kill Tori at the end of that road with all it's seclusion. <modsnip> that her "sudden snapping" claim is what is actually to be deemed as absurd and ridiculous. <modsnip>. MOO

 

[BorgQueen]

The most damning evidence is yet to come. It is my opinion that one can't say FOR SURE what happened until this evidence is presented. Of course everybody has their own opinion, but, we have to be fair and let this trial play out. While I do think MR is *probably* guilty, I also believe there is a chance that he isn't guilty, as charged. Perhaps he is guilty of something else... manslaughter, obstruction of justice, accessory after the fact, all of the above, or perhaps even nothing at all. As of now, there is still that reasonable doubt as to how deep his involvement is. All that has been established so far is that he was there.
And nevermind the rights of the accused for a moment. Think of some of the other victims. His poor mother, for example. She is probably heartbroken at even the thought that the child she loved and raised could even possibly be guilty of such a crime. Even she deserves the truth. The whole truth. Tori and her family are not the only victims of this terrible crime. They are, without doubt, the biggest victims, but there are still others that need to be considered.
:moo: Just my opinion.

Also, about the 'drug addict' situation. Not all addicts are horrible people. Drugs don't create horrible people. These horrible people were horrible without the drugs. Problem is that drugs can cause an emotional disconnect with the rest of the world, which leaves these horrible people with the courage and thoughtlessness to carry out horrible crimes that they have thought about in the past. But not all addicts are like this! There are some genuinely good people who have fallen into the trap of drugs and alcohol, and it is unfair to judge and lump all addicts into the same category, as psychopaths and terrible human beings.
What about those 'nosy neighbours', for example? They were reportedly drug addicts, but they had the compassion to go out of their way to try to confirm their suspicions. They tried to help. Perhaps they were motivated by the reward. Perhaps they were motivated by sympathy and justice. Perhaps a bit of both. That doesn't matter. What matters is that they tried to help, drugs or not.


This is all just my opinion, of course. And my rant for the night is complete!
:moo:

 

[Hello_Kitty]

If there was any evidence or statements from people who knew MR, that he was a sexual deviant..............I must have missed them.

Well one of his girlfriends did mention he was into 'bondage' that in itself to me is not sexual deviance, but he was also into 'choking' while having sex and that to me sounds a itsy bitsy bit deviant

 

[OhSoCurious]

Well one of his girlfriends did mention he was into 'bondage' that in itself to me is not sexual deviance, but he was also into 'choking' while having sex and that to me sounds a itsy bitsy bit deviant

"Sexual deviance includes a range of abnormal sexual expression from fetishism, cross dressing, sexual sadomasochism to pedophilia, incest and rape at the extreme end of the continuum."

Perhaps the two deviant behaviours that have been mentioned relating to MR history are not included in the definition. Things might also be interpreted differently if there is consent between to adults. MOO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

The most damning evidence is yet to come. It is my opinion that one can't say FOR SURE what happened until this evidence is presented. Of course everybody has their own opinion, but, we have to be fair and let this trial play out. While I do think MR is *probably* guilty, I also believe there is a chance that he isn't guilty, as charged. Perhaps he is guilty of something else... manslaughter, obstruction of justice, accessory after the fact, all of the above, or perhaps even nothing at all. As of now, there is still that reasonable doubt as to how deep his involvement is. All that has been established so far is that he was there.
And nevermind the rights of the accused for a moment. Think of some of the other victims. His poor mother, for example. She is probably heartbroken at even the thought that the child she loved and raised could even possibly be guilty of such a crime. Even she deserves the truth. The whole truth. Tori and her family are not the only victims of this terrible crime. They are, without doubt, the biggest victims, but there are still others that need to be considered.
:moo: Just my opinion.

Also, about the 'drug addict' situation. Not all addicts are horrible people. Drugs don't create horrible people. These horrible people were horrible without the drugs. Problem is that drugs can cause an emotional disconnect with the rest of the world, which leaves these horrible people with the courage and thoughtlessness to carry out horrible crimes that they have thought about in the past. But not all addicts are like this! There are some genuinely good people who have fallen into the trap of drugs and alcohol, and it is unfair to judge and lump all addicts into the same category, as psychopaths and terrible human beings.
What about those 'nosy neighbours', for example? They were reportedly drug addicts, but they had the compassion to go out of their way to try to confirm their suspicions. They tried to help. Perhaps they were motivated by the reward. Perhaps they were motivated by sympathy and justice. Perhaps a bit of both. That doesn't matter. What matters is that they tried to help, drugs or not.


This is all just my opinion, of course. And my rant for the night is complete!
:moo:

Hear hear!! Well said

 

[antiquegirl]

I certainly hope it didn't happen either. However, why would TLM have a conscience enough to recant who killed Tori but not recant the rape. The only reason I can think why she might be blaming MR for the rape is that she is looking for revenge against men for her own sexual abuse she suffered as a child, an abuse that was likely never dealt with properly by authorities. Or that she herself raped Tori and has blocked it out because it's so unthinkable to her that she would do this. Or, third reason is that she didn't recant because MR really did sexually abuse Tori.

My theory is that TLM recanted her story about who killed Tori because one of her "friends" in jail that she had confided in ratted her out. (Perhaps the same one she assaulted in January, as payback.)

As recently as January 2012, McClintic had got into a vicious fight with a fellow inmate at the Grand Valley Institution for Women in Kitchener, Derstine said.

He said McClintic asked to see an inmate ostensibly for peer support but quickly got into a brawl where she kicked and stomped the other woman.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/a...intic-was-killing-s-mastermind-lawyer-charges

She met with a counsellor who was professional enough to confront her and coax it out of her.

On Jan. 13, just weeks before Rafferty’s trial began, McClintic told a behavioural counsellor in prison that she had wielded the hammer that killed Tori.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/a...c-described-herself-as-emotionless-in-journal

As for the sexual assault, I'll go with a combination of factors. The revenge against men in general for her own abuse (as per your first suggestion), revenge against MTR specifically for not loving her and seeing other women, and the fact that she doesn't want to go down alone for this horrific crime. I have always thought from the beginning that it was feasible that IF Tori was sexually assaulted, it could have been TLM herself. It's possible that she blocked this out and her "flashbacks" made her see her own assault and project it onto MTR and Tori, but it would be simpler to believe that she is just a pathological liar.

(One of the questions uppermost in my mind is who removed the garbage bags and hammer from the trunk of the car and when. There's a lot of ambiguity there that needs clearing up. The answers to those questions could go a long way in showing who did what to Tori ... IF the truth is learned, which may never happen.)

The above is all just MOO and fervent wish that nothing of the sort happened to Tori. The brutal hammer attack by this psychopath is bad enough without her having had to endure a sexual assault by either of these people. We will just have to wait to see where the evidence points and hope for the best.

JMO

 

[snoofer]

Interesting read.
The following factors are indicative towards antisocial personality: •The person fails to conform to the social norms and lawful behavior that is shown by the repeated occurrences of arrests by the police.
•The person is deceitful and is used to lying repeatedly, uses aliases and cons people for personal gain and pleasure.
•They are impulsive and do not plan for the future.
•They are easily irritated and become aggressive, which is indicated by their involvement in physical fights and assault cases.
•They have little or no regard for the safety of others and even their own.
•They are irresponsible people, who cannot sustain themselves with consistent work behavior and cannot honor financial obligations


Sociopaths are very disorganized people.

Psychopaths are obsessively organized people.


Sociopaths cannot maintain normal relationships with their family, friends and co-workers.

Psychopaths tend to have normal relationships with the people around them and are even able to take care of old parents and get married.


Sociopaths are not able to maintain a steady employment or house.

Psychopaths are very successful career-wise. Their ability to organize makes them very likable and trustworthy among people. Psychopaths tend to understand the emotions of others, but they do not feel any emotions or are basically shallow. Thus, it is very easy for them to manipulate people with emotional games.


Sociopaths are found living at the periphery of the society. A study carried out with the homeless people of New York as subjects, showed that most of them were sociopaths.

Psychopaths are found living in large apartments and houses and cannot be distinguished from normal people.


Sociopaths are very erratic and unplanned with their acts of extreme violence. Their inability to plan and be organized, makes them leave trails of clues. This makes it very easy to identify and zero-in on them.

Psychopaths tend to plan for years before they carry out their act of violence. They plan every single detail of their crime and make sure that they remain undetected. This organized and detailed planning makes it very difficult to catch them.

The article goes on to explain how psychopaths exhibit many of the traits of sociopaths and some mental health experts lump them together but LE makes an effort to distinguish between the two. The reason I bring this up is these terms have been thrown around in the media with regards to this case and I believe defense wanted to hint at this by bringing up the dog in the microwave incident. JMO
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/sociopath-vs-psychopath.html JMO

 

[~n/t~]

I find it fascinating that some are directing the blame away from the accused kidnapper, rapist, killer.

So far we know he was the driver of the vehicle.

So far the Crown has proven that he was at the crime scene.

So far his defence attorney admitted he helped dispose of Tori's body.

So far we know that Victoria's body was covered in huge boulders over 200 plus lbs worth.

So far we know the COD was blunt force trauma to the head by the hammer.

We have not yet heard testimony about the sexual assault nor have we heard the autopsy as it relates to the sexual assault (rape).

Once this is proven as was the rest of the Crown's case, this jury will come back with a Guilty verdict. We may never know who gave Tori those fatal blows or maybe we will..........

This is just the beginning. More testimony and evidence to come and Victoria "Tori" Elizabeth Marie Stafford will get justice!