trial thread: 3/30/2012

[maxfactor]

Who is to say what is absurd when listening to the remarks of a lifetime criminal/liar? Who is to say what is deemed as ridiculous when stories are changed by this liar? <modsnip> that it was likely TLM's plan to kill Tori at the end of that road with all it's seclusion. <modsnip> that her "sudden snapping" claim is what is actually to be deemed as absurd and ridiculous. <modsnip>. MOO

I think some of us are forgetting that she's not on trial here, he is.:moo:

 

[maxfactor]

I find it fascinating that some are directing the blame away from the accused kidnapper, rapist, killer.

So far we know he was the driver of the vehicle.

So far the Crown has proven that he was at the crime scene.

So far his defence attorney admitted he helped dispose of Tori's body.

So far we know that Victoria's body was covered in huge boulders over 200 plus lbs worth.

So far we know the COD was blunt force trauma to the head by the hammer.

We have not yet heard testimony about the sexual assault nor have we heard the autopsy as it relates to the sexual assault (rape).

Once this is proven as was the rest of the Crown's case, this jury will come back with a Guilty verdict. We may never know who gave Tori those fatal blows or maybe we will..........

This is just the beginning. More testimony and evidence to come and Victoria "Tori" Elizabeth Marie Stafford will get justice!

Just to add to your list,

So far we know that Rafferty also wasn't truthful with LE.

So far we know that Rafferty was also involved with drugs.

So far we know that Rafferty tried to deflect the situation back to Tori's own Mother when interviewed by LE. Just how compassionate is that?

Just MOO

 

[lightlady]

MOO... Not sure what to make of TLMs testimony at this point, obviously there are some parts that were spot on and lots of confused contradictions. I doubt we will ever have a clear view. But some things are clear, that MR was with TLM when she got Tori, dropped her to purchase the murder weapon, and helped to clean up. So is it credible within reasonable doubt to believe any murder or other offense occurred without his knowledge? I hear the defense story, but so far find that very hard to believe. We will see what else is brought to light.

 

[maxfactor]

MOO... Not sure what to make of TLMs testimony at this point, obviously there are some parts that were spot on and lots of confused contradictions. I doubt we will ever have a clear view. But some things are clear, that MR was with TLM when she got Tori, dropped her to purchase the murder weapon, and helped to clean up. So is it credible within reasonable doubt to believe any murder or other offense occurred without his knowledge? I hear the defense story, but so far find that very hard to believe. We will see what else is brought to light.

Very well said lightlady. IMO if MR had been the one to provide LE with the drawings that provided so much detail then I think it would be easier to see the Defense story. It will be interesting to see what MR said to LE when he was arrested. ( if we are privy to that conversation)

 

[JayFriend]

If MR was an innocent bystander as his defense claims, and TLM asked him to walk away so she could talk to Tori and/or Tori was so afraid of MR, why would he have to drive that long distance down that laneway? To me it's blindingly obvious. It wasn't TLM who wanted him to drive down there, it was his plan. He wanted to rape Tori somewhere secluded where no one would hear Tori scream or see what he was doing to her.

It does not make sense they would find a secluded spot just so TLM could talk to Tori, totally absurd IMO. MR could have stopped anywhere along a road or just at the beginning of the path so TLM could have a talk with Tori, even if she had to tinkle and needed privacy. I say hogwash, and the only other excuse someone would dream up would be utterly ridiculous. MOO

I'm sure the Crown will make this obvious to the jury when they go to Tori's death site and/or in their closing arguments. JMHO

That makes a lot of sense. The secluded spot invisible from the road, the rock pile. He must have known what was there when he drove up the laneway. They brought no shovel because they didn't need one because of the rock pile. (JMO)

 

[maxfactor]

Another Charles Adler interview with RS last night. I have to say I have the utmost respect and admiration for Rodney Stafford, it takes unimaginable strength to get through this horrible crime and to be able to fight everyday to make our country a safer place.




http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/...37001/justice-for-tori-stafford/1540700698001

 

[Confusedashell]

I certainly hope it didn't happen either. However, why would TLM have a conscience enough to recant who killed Tori but not recant the rape. The only reason I can think why she might be blaming MR for the rape is that she is looking for revenge against men for her own sexual abuse she suffered as a child, an abuse that was likely never dealt with properly by authorities. Or that she herself raped Tori and has blocked it out because it's so unthinkable to her that she would do this. Or, third reason is that she didn't recant because MR really did sexually abuse Tori.

This is just my opinion. If when tori was being raped by MR, TLM saw rage from when she was a child why would she kill Tori, Tori is not the one that harmed her, why not go after MR who was harming little Tori??
JMO

 

[JayFriend]

Another Charles Adler interview with RS last night. I have to say I have the utmost respect and admiration for Rodney Stafford, it takes unimaginable strength to get through this horrible crime and to be able to fight everyday to make our country a safer place.




http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/...37001/justice-for-tori-stafford/1540700698001

Yes, Tori's Law, the death penalty for child killers. While most of us would agree, there is one serious problem with that. If a jury has to determine guilt or innocence where the death penalty is involved, they will be much more reluctant to find guilt, even if there really is no shadow of a doubt because what if???

 

[Shasta]

<modsnip>

With respect, I believe Salem issued a warning that we are not to discuss pertinent info during the MTR trial until it's disclosed during the trial for public perusal. <modsnip>

HTH

 

[Wondergirl]

That makes a lot of sense. The secluded spot invisible from the road, the rock pile. He must have known what was there when he drove up the laneway. They brought no shovel because they didn't need one because of the rock pile. (JMO)

Good point about not needing to bring a shovel.

Did MTR know those rocks were there? :waitasec:

 

[Shasta]

This is just my opinion. If when tori was being raped by MR, TLM saw rage from when she was a child why would she kill Tori, Tori is not the one that harmed her, why not go after MR who was harming little Tori??
JMO

Respectfully, the "rape" is still alleged. That's not to say I don't think it happened; but that info is yet to be brought forward by the Crown.

I don't believe the Crown would include the sexual assault charge vicariously/tentatively in such a high profile case. Imagine how hurtful that would be to the family--insult heaped upon grief and pain. So as much as it hurts to think of it having happened, I think we should all prepare ourselves for hearing the worst. I can't find the link but I believe RS, the father, also mentioned sexual assault in one of his pressers.

I asked myself the same question that you ask. Why didn't TLM attack MTR in her rage ... why a defenceless child. The only way I could explain it to myself was to identify that the response of a normal person would be to protect the child and TLM was far from normal. (By the way, I'm confusedashell too!)

JMO

 

[OhSoCurious]

I find it fascinating that some are directing the blame away from the accused kidnapper, rapist, killer.

So far we know he was the driver of the vehicle.

So far the Crown has proven that he was at the crime scene.

So far his defence attorney admitted he helped dispose of Tori's body.

So far we know that Victoria's body was covered in huge boulders over 200 plus lbs worth.

So far we know the COD was blunt force trauma to the head by the hammer.

We have not yet heard testimony about the sexual assault nor have we heard the autopsy as it relates to the sexual assault (rape).

Once this is proven as was the rest of the Crown's case, this jury will come back with a Guilty verdict. We may never know who gave Tori those fatal blows or maybe we will..........

This is just the beginning. More testimony and evidence to come and Victoria "Tori" Elizabeth Marie Stafford will get justice!

It's called reasonable doubt. Juries are to keep an open mind and ears during a trial. They are instructed to not make a verdict until all evidence has been heard/seen. Many folks seem unable to do this, which is why they have the jury selection process. The word "accused" must be comprehended with great depth in a trial. A fortune teller does not make a good juror. MOO

 

[dar107]

It's called reasonable doubt. Juries are to keep an open mind and ears during a trial. They are instructed to not make a verdict until all evidence has been heard/seen. Many folks seem unable to do this, which is why they have the jury selection process. The word "accused" must be comprehended with great depth in a trial. A fortune teller does not make a good juror. MOO

Very good point. I don't agree that keeping an open mind until all the evidence has been presented equals trying to deflect blame from the accused. Everyone thinks differently and while some may have already have MR tried and convicted in their opinions, others may want to wait to hear everything the crown has yet to present before they come to their own conclusions. Part of keeping an open mind may be about theorizing what other possible scenarios could of happened that day. I don't think it fair to criticize anyone for this, or elude that they are trying to deflect blame away from MR. moo

 

[antiquegirl]

I think some of us are forgetting that she's not on trial here, he is.:moo:

No, she is not, but her credibility is. There is a very good reason TLM had to take the stand for five days, with a sixth day devoted to her video interview with Det. Smyth. And she may not be finished testifying yet. As the "star witness", everything she says, has said, and has done reflects back on MTR and can influence the jury and the outcome of this trial.

JMO

 

[lightlady]

One question about the rape charge. Is it possible the prosecution does not have any additional evidence there, but if they did not press that charge they would be doubting the credibility of their own key witness? I tend to think if there was real evidence MRs lawyer would not put forward his theory as stated.

 

[maxfactor]

No, she is not, but her credibility is. There is a very good reason TLM had to take the stand for five days, with a sixth day devoted to her video interview with Det. Smyth. And she may not be finished testifying yet. As the "star witness", everything she says, has said, and has done reflects back on MTR and can influence the jury and the outcome of this trial.

JMO

That's true, her credibility is a part of this,and from what we have heard from MR's initial interview with LE, so is his. We've heard her testimony but we have also heard other evidence and will be hearing a lot more IMO. I just don't think it really makes sense to totally focus on TLM's shortcomings here, in the hope for justice for Tori that will only be a part of what the jury bases the decision on. IMO, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that MR was involved in this crime, how much he was involved has not been proven in a court of law yet, but as the mods have posted already, this is not a court of law and we are not obligated to go on the assumption that MR is innocent until proven guilty. Therefore I think it's fair to add up all of the things we have learned about MR and all the things we are learning now and put on our detective hats and come to our own conclusions about what happened to Tori. I'm not specifically speaking out about anyone in particular here, just adding my opinion to the mix. In my opinion we are spending too much time bashing TLM when we could be trying to focus on the other evidence we are hearing.

 

[maxfactor]

Yes, Tori's Law, the death penalty for child killers. While most of us would agree, there is one serious problem with that. If a jury has to determine guilt or innocence where the death penalty is involved, they will be much more reluctant to find guilt, even if there really is no shadow of a doubt because what if???

I think you could be right about that. My hope for Tori's law is that the sentences for child sexual assaults, abductions, murders will be increased. I haven't really researched this part of it but I'm thinking you would do a lot more time if you stole your neighbor's car than if you stole and sexually abused their child. Very, very sad when you think about it.

 

[Juris_Prudence]

Maybe the Crown and defense cleared this up already and it's under publication ban? :waitasec:Don't forget there is still a ban and only certain people are privy to some of the information, notably the jurors. Guess we will have to wait and see if more information comes out about this right? Maybe through another witness? There is a reason why some things seem to be unanswered or left hanging in mid air; the drug debt theory, the single shoe Mrs. M found, who actually bludgeoned Tori with the hammer. We have to remember this is not CSI where everything is covered and solved in an hour show. HTH. Let's compare it to a weekly or daily murder mystery show. The answers I'm sure will come in due time. I only wish it was a show and not reality. :moo:

:waitasec: this post confused me. I thought the purpose of a publication ban was to prevent information from getting into the media? I thought it was to help preclude a jury from hearing details that could prejudice them against an accused? I was wondering if you were talking about things discussed in the pretrial motions? The motions, and whether they were granted or not was not covered by the media as those too were under a publication ban. With that said, its possible that LE and the Crown may have had more evidence that was deemed inadmissable for whatever reason. If that is the case, its possible there is other evidence that may exist which even the jury is not and will not be privy to. JMO.

 

[Macright]

That's true, her credibility is a part of this,and from what we have heard from MR's initial interview with LE, so is his. We've heard her testimony but we have also heard other evidence and will be hearing a lot more IMO. I just don't think it really makes sense to totally focus on TLM's shortcomings here, in the hope for justice for Tori that will only be a part of what the jury bases the decision on. IMO, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that MR was involved in this crime, how much he was involved has not been proven in a court of law yet, but as the mods have posted already, this is not a court of law and we are not obligated to go on the assumption that MR is innocent until proven guilty. Therefore I think it's fair to add up all of the things we have learned about MR and all the things we are learning now and put on our detective hats and come to our own conclusions about what happened to Tori. I'm not specifically speaking out about anyone in particular here, just adding my opinion to the mix. In my opinion we are spending too much time bashing TLM when we could be trying to focus on the other evidence we are hearing.

your post above does make some sense but IMO so far, other than knowing that MR was at the crime scene we only have the word of TLM so far about the events, how they unfolded..so IMO opinion it is only HER word at the moment..we have yet to hear MR version..

also TLM word has changed so much that it is difficult to believe much that comes out of her mouth now and from what I have heard and read to date about TLM..well bashing her is putting it mildly...

 

[swedie]

If MR was an innocent bystander as his defense claims, and TLM asked him to walk away so she could talk to Tori and/or Tori was so afraid of MR, why would MR have to drive that long distance down that laneway? To me it's blindingly obvious. It wasn't TLM who wanted him to drive down there, it was his plan. He wanted to rape Tori somewhere secluded where no one would hear Tori scream or see what he was doing to her. MOO

Does anyone have any reasonable suggestions or theories on how the defense is going to try and explain this fact away?

Another thought, why would MR take a chance of possibly getting stuck in snow or muck in the lane way with an abducted child in his car? My best guess is because the prospect of "good things are comming my way" outweighed that risk.

TLM's testimony is the best thing they have to tell the story of what happened that day. So yes it's important IMO for the jurors to have a better picture of what happened on April 8th, 2009, that lead to Tori's death. MOO