Trial Thread 4/25/2012

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remember the words however; we can't keep her and we can't let her go and I'm going to have sex with her. No matter who eventually did the final blows, TS was not going home that day. :(moo

These words by Rafferty were probably heard by lil Tori...she must have been so petrified. jmo

bbm--->Your so right snoofer
 
respectfully I do ... that is what I have always understood but hey I have been out of the game for so long...still have my main man ...being intimate after meeting someone says to me that they were answering each others need or one of them...it has been posted that they were lovers... just saying... JMO

No disrespect meant at all but when someone says lovers, I don't take that as the people in question are actually in love with each other. I have asked around and others do share the same belief. I see it as a term for two people who are sleeping together but not necessarily in a committed relationship, but are meeting the needs of each other.
 
No it is not. I work with a man who was a defense lawyer and he told me that when a lawyer takes on a new client they do not ask them if they are guilty or not. They only care about disclosure from the crown and gathering evidence and creating a defense. Very few people in our country who are tried are actually innocent, however everyone is entitled to a trial (our judges would rather see 10 guilty people walk free than imprison one innocent man). Defense lawyers are not naive, they know their clients are guilty more than they are not. There job is not to determine their guilt but to provide doubt to free their clients. So it does not matter what they believe of their client because their job is to be objective not subjective.

This was my understanding of the legal system, admittedly based on TVs & movies. When I heard that his first lawyer was 'fired', my first thought was that he'd heard too much and was no longer capable of defending and being honest at the same time.
 
JMO almost like he was treating her as a little sister..especially the pat on the head...don't see anything in this today that they are lovers....JMO

Sorry but that's gross! They were at the hotel and had sex.
 
Michael Rafferty visited Terri-Lynne McClintic in jail after Tori Stafford went missing, court hears
Despite being what his lawyer called “horrified,” the man accused in the abduction and death of young schoolgirl Victoria (Tori) Stafford made multiple text messages and phone calls

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/19/19656421.html


o/t Looking forward to seeing video
See you all tomorrow xo
 
ugh, are MTR and TLM allowed "family time" and CV as prisoners now? JMO
 
No it is not. I work with a man who was a defense lawyer and he told me that when a lawyer takes on a new client they do not ask them if they are guilty or not. They only care about disclosure from the crown and gathering evidence and creating a defense. Very few people in our country who are tried are actually innocent, however everyone is entitled to a trial (our judges would rather see 10 guilty people walk free than imprison one innocent man). Defense lawyers are not naive, they know their clients are guilty more than they are not. There job is not to determine their guilt but to provide doubt to free their clients. So it does not matter what they believe of their client because their job is to be objective not subjective.

Respectfully, it is actually not about getting their client out if prison, it is about getting the best possible outcome for their client, whether it is a reduced sentence, probation or having them released, that is their job as defence counsel. The rest of your post I agree with.
 
These tweets are bothering me:

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP: The list includes a 17 hour data call (internet connection) that started 10 p.m. on April 7, night before Tor'i disappeared

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP: Between 2:54 pm and 4:18 PM no activity on Rafferty Bberry except ongoing data call

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP: At 5;03 p.m. Rafferty starts two hour data call and send BBM to Spitzig


If there was a data call that started at 10pm on April 7 and last for 17 hours, to me that goes until 5pm on April 8. And he started another 2 hour data call at 5:03pm.

When was the battery removed? I don't think it is possible for the blackberry to make data calls with no battery.
 
Trying to get this clear:
Charity S, escorts for MTR, gives some/all? proceeds via bank transfers some/all?
..then MTR buys sells drugs using this money makes a profit.
..then, I would think MTR would owe something back of those invested drug profits to CS. So did he pay her back cash? OR take it off next installments?

Just trying to figure out the cash flow ...insert scratching head emoticon
or maybe I misunderstood that whole conversation in the first place. If so, just ignore me and carry on.

Again, thanks for the tweeters...twitterers
 
These tweets are bothering me:

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP: The list includes a 17 hour data call (internet connection) that started 10 p.m. on April 7, night before Tor'i disappeared

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP: Between 2:54 pm and 4:18 PM no activity on Rafferty Bberry except ongoing data call

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP: At 5;03 p.m. Rafferty starts two hour data call and send BBM to Spitzig


If there was a data call that started at 10pm on April 7 and last for 17 hours, to me that goes until 5pm on April 8. And he started another 2 hour data call at 5:03pm.

When was the battery removed? I don't think it is possible for the blackberry to make data calls with no battery.

17 hours from 10pm would be 3:00 the afternoon of the 8th, that makes more sense.I had to think about it too cause I was thinking the same thing as you.
 
I would classify myself as a bit stubborn and more than anything else, I despise being proven wrong. In this case, I am hoping that Derenstine does just that. Unfortunately, I don't think he will. JMO.
 
So sorry to butt in I am attempting to get caught up and am back at the posts in the #50's.. If this lands within court tweets please just disregard and I will bump this post later to ask about..

I am very confused as to how you can receive a text message from an "unknown caller"?? I don't believe this is even possible down here in my neck of the woods.. If so I've never seen it????

And then what's the 17hour Internet connection on MRs phone? that if I understood correctly included in that 17hours is the abduction, rape, and murder of Tori?? How does one stay connected to Internet for 17hours via cell phone?


____________________...
Posting via mobile as well as via tablet so plz forgive all typos.. Btwn the sucky touch keyboard and the obsessive auto-correct it's a big ol' mess :crazy:

Hey, I had a busy day and I'm about 10 pages behind!

My guess is that the hours of "data calls" could be that he had his Internet browser open. I guess he can afford it with his "girls" paying the bills. ;)
 
i wonder if they showed if his phone had done the "lost data calls" not coming through for hours if it had happened prior
 
I found this about Hal Mattson's arrest:

Police say he was trying to influence witness testimony in the case although Mattson says he is no longer representing Rafferty. Referring to the murder suspect, he told Law Times:
“We came to a fork in the path that wouldn’t allow us to represent him, and I don’t think he would have appreciated our representation, unfortunately... Our solicitor communication had broken down.”

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/300562#ixzz1t4q3hdAk

http://digitaljournal.com/article/300562

Maybe he wanted Rafferty to plead guilty.
 
Lots of phone calls and texts between MR or TLM and TLM's contacts, and lots of speculation about what the conversations were about, but no testimony yet.

I am hoping the Crown can produce at least one witness to testify about the conversations or texts.......and how that relates to the abduction.

JMO..........
I'm about 10 pages behind, so maybe someone has already mentioned it. Regarding the many calls between MTR and TLM in the detention centre, aren't those recorded? But I suppose they knew that, so they wouldn't say anything incriminating, but you never know. MTR must be s****ing bricks listening to all the blackberry evidence they have following his every move.
 
I will wait to see what the defense has to say, but I am curious if anyone here can think of a reason for the behavior of MR to TLM AFTER the murder took place, given that the defense has already said that he helped to clean up.
I have heard people postulate he was unaware of the kidnapping until too late (babysitting, drug debt), that there was no rape, that he walked away when the murder took place. But why would he act like he does after the fact if TLM's sudden plan and visciousness was a surprise to him? Why would he continue to "court" TLM? Why would he rev up his "dating" life? Is there some explanation I am missing? His actions seem to speak so loudly of his deep involvement to me.

I agree...If he was innocent and was horrified of what TLM did, would you not be running for the hills and staying as far away from TLM as possible???He chose to visit, he chose to call, he chose to look after her mom. From his visits, calls etc...this tells me that he was staying on her good side so that she would stick with the plan and her taking the fall. GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY is all I can say. After all he does have a life filled with POF, pimp payments, drugs and one groovy car!!!!
I can't wait to hear how the defence twists this around!!!!!


I think it will go something like this.

TLM just randomly decided one day, due to all those explicit Necro lyrics she was listening to on her Ipod, to abduct and murder Victoria for a drug debt that doesn't appear so far to exist. She decided that instead of either doing it herself, or enlisting the help of one of her EOA gangsta "friends" (that we've yet to hear anything about hanging around with her in Woodstock...where she was kinda stuck because she had no money or wheels to go anywhere) she'd ask her new "boyfriend" (who denied being her boyfriend) to drive her over to the school to pick up a kid that she had to babysit.

So instead of driving into the parking lot of the school that day, he dropped TLM off up the street and drove wayyy past the school and parked in a retirement home parking lot out of sight of anyone on the street. Because he’d scoped out this great parking spot at 9am in the morning. Quite the planner he is. Now even though Victoria didn't know these people according to her mother and TLM, she happily agreed to follow TLM to the waiting car and take a ride to Guelph so that they could pick up some percs for TLM's boyfriend. All the while just sitting there in the back of the car, where there was apparently no bench seat, without a care in the world and saying nothing like "hey...what's going on and where are you taking me?" Or “hey I’ve got friends coming over to watch a movie…will I be home soon?” Or "can I call my mother?" Nope…she just sat there and took in the scenery, never mentioning that maybe she should be going home instead of going on a drug run with a couple of strangers.

So they get to BA’s house and Victoria lies down on the floor like it’s some kind of game so no one will see her. Now shortly after that perc pick up, TLM asked her boyfriend to swing by the local HD and lend her some money to buy a few things. So he went to the ATM and took out his last $80 cash and gave $40 to TLM to make her purchase, without ever asking her what she needed the money for. And when she came out of the store with a very small bag he naturally opened the trunk for her because he never keeps bags or anything in the backseat area of his car. Well at least not until after the murder. Perhaps the trauma of it all made him a slob?

Okay so after the HD purchase, TLM decided to tell him that she had actually abducted this child from the school because her mother owed her or maybe one of her EOA gangsta friends (not sure how they’re going to introduce the drug pals MR was calling all day and night who must be EOA gang members right?) money for a drug debt. And that she was going to...a)call TM to make good on the debt?? B)ask for ransom after taking VS to a safe house?? c) Just kill VS out of spite because she always wanted to kill someone?? Not sure what the plan was here. But first she asked him if he wanted to have sex with the child. Because after the trauma of her own sexual assault as a child, it makes perfect sense that she would offer her new beau this gift. Apparently he said no because he’s a good guy who wears his heart on his sleeve so TLM pulled a blue exacto knife on him and then ordered him to drive to a rural property near Mt Forest, a place that it appears TLM has never been to in her life and couldn’t find a second time, although MR lived for a time in the area and worked just down the road.

When they got to a long and very secluded lane and drove into it until they were out of sight of the road and the sideways house on the road, she then asked him to get out of the car and go for a walk because she wanted to talk to the child because she was now afraid of him. The guy who didn't abduct her and turned down the chance to rape her. The nice guy who had no idea that they weren’t babysitting her. This was the person she was afraid of. So anyway...MR went for a very long walk without his phone which he turned off before going on the walk just in case someone else tried to use it. Or the phone was having charging problems because he did have to return it a month later for that issue. And that's why he wiped it clean first, he thought maybe it just had too much stuff on it and that's why it wouldn't charge properly. So anyway he walked so far away, probably at least halfway to Mt Forest and back considering it took about an hour or more, that he couldn’t hear or see anything about what was going on at his car in that laneway.

When he returned however, he saw a dead child on the ground with no clothing on from the waist down, a garbage bag over her battered head, his trunk open and a crazed TLM holding a hammer and threatening him that he was just as much involved and he'd better help clean up and dispose of the body or she'd send her one EOA gangsta friends out looking for him. Or she’d take revenge on him and go to the cops and set him up and say he kidnapped, raped and murdered the child. Even though that meant she would get a life sentence too.

So he did what all decent young men do in that situation, he obeyed the crazed murderer, who had a hammer and an exacto knife as weapons, instead of calling the cops on her right there on the spot. He helped cover up the murder, helped clean up blood and bottle caps, disposed of the body, destroyed evidence and asked her if she wanted something to eat before dropping her off back in Woodstock. And then he went on with his regular life of sex, drugs and pimping while simultaneously pretending to still be her boyfriend so she wouldn’t get mad at him and make good on her threats. And he said nothing to anyone about where Victoria was even though 13,800 people were looking for her. Although he told plenty of people what he thought happened. It was all her mother’s fault you know. Those nasty drug people always have these kinds of problems with people taking their kids and keeping them and pretending that they are their own. And still to this day, even after his arrest, has said nothing, even though the crazed murdering gangsta chick was now behind bars. Because you see, he didn't do anything to bring Victoria home and tell the “real story” because he was scared. Scared that he might be blamed and scared of the EOA gangsta chick from London and her other gang member friends in Woodstock? Scared that they might do something bad to him… and his very sick mother.

MOO
 
Trying to get this clear:
Charity S, escorts for MTR, gives some/all? proceeds via bank transfers some/all?
..then MTR buys sells drugs using this money makes a profit.
..then, I would think MTR would owe something back of those invested drug profits to CS. So did he pay her back cash? OR take it off next installments?

Just trying to figure out the cash flow ...insert scratching head emoticon
or maybe I misunderstood that whole conversation in the first place. If so, just ignore me and carry on.

Again, thanks for the tweeters...twitterers

The escort wasn't asked and didn't volunteer the information. The way she presented it in her testimony was she did all the escorting and MR got all the money.

Frankly, I doubt it works like that in real life.

Even a pimp pays the rent, buy clothes, and supplies food for his ladies.

There was no testimony that she had any other job, so how did she pay her bills and feed her kids?

The Crown didn't ask her how she managed to survive, and I wonder why.

JMO.............
 
I'm about 10 pages behind, so maybe someone has already mentioned it. Regarding the many calls between MTR and TLM in the detention centre, aren't those recorded? But I suppose they knew that, so they wouldn't say anything incriminating, but you never know. MTR must be s****ing bricks listening to all the blackberry evidence they have following his every move.

Calls in the detention centre are not recorded apparently.
 
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