Trial Thread 4/4/2012

[Wondergirl]

A red herring fallacy.

Thank-you, Alison, I agree!

Though I confess, I had to google your term, too late at night for my faculties, lol.

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

 

[antiquegirl]

lol, anti suicide smocks, great name. :floorlaugh: I bet they are like the papery cloth things you get in the hospital when you visit someone in isolation or to put on to protect your clothing, kwim. RW had to wear them too. :floorlaugh: :moo:

I fail to see what's so hilarious about them, but here is a picture of anti-suicide smocks:

 

[swedie]

I fail to see what's so hilarious about them, but here is a picture of anti-suicide smocks:

:floorlaugh: Maybe a Ralph Lauren design? Love the models. Thanks for the laugh.
In MR's mug shot he is wearing one. At least that is what some of us believe. HTH

 

[Tahorn]

TLM is no doubt a violent revengeful person who's life was filled with evil. She spoke, wrote and lived rage. I personally have no doubt she beat and killed Tori. The only real question is why? Was it because of a MR plan to kidnap, rape and murder a little girl? Or was it because she felt wronged by TM or JG and was looking to hurt them. Or was it because she fell for MR and wanted to give him a gift, believing that it would tie them together (it worked for Karla). The only reason it matters is because either MR is a child rapist or he is not ... And if he is not then what motive did he have?

 

[Ardy]

TLM is no doubt a violent revengeful person who's life was filled with evil. She spoke, wrote and lived rage. I personally have no doubt she beat and killed Tori. The only real question is why? Was it because of a MR plan to kidnap, rape and murder a little girl? Or was it because she felt wronged by TM or JG and was looking to hurt them. Or was it because she fell for MR and wanted to give him a gift, believing that it would tie them together (it worked for Karla). The only reason it matters is because either MR is a child rapist or he is not ... And if he is not then what motive did he have?

Good post.

You are asking the quintessential question, and one that has not been fully explained by the Crown as it relates to MR.

No doubt, the jury will be waiting for the question to be answered as well.

If the Crown finishes it's case without addressing the issue directly, it will leave the jury free to accept whatever the defense will most assuredly be eager to impart on them.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I don't think that the Crown has to address the motive issue directly although circumstantially I think if you believe that MTR was a willing participant in the abduction motive is addressed indirectly as one could ask what other motive would MTR have for doing so.

 

[BorgQueen]

Umm... question... is TLM at the same jail that her friend, Shipway, is? I ask this because it appears Shipway has internet access (facebook page has recent updates) and this worries me. I really hope McClintic does NOT have access to the internet. Could be very, very bad for this trial... :moo:

 

[antiquegirl]

:floorlaugh: Maybe a Ralph Lauren design? Love the models. Thanks for the laugh.
In MR's mug shot he is wearing one. At least that is what some of us believe. HTH

You're so welcome.

They both appear to be wearing street clothes. It looks just like a nylon white hoodie on MTR to me. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure, but I think fingerprints and mugshots are taken before you're asked to strip and change, thrown in a cell, and put on suicide watch. HTH

JMO

 

[Tahorn]

I don't think that the Crown has to address the motive issue directly although circumstantially I think if you believe that MTR was a willing participant in the abduction motive is addressed indirectly as one could ask what other motive would MTR have for doing so.

I guess the million dollar question is what exactly did he do?

 

[snoofer]

TLM is no doubt a violent revengeful person who's life was filled with evil. She spoke, wrote and lived rage. I personally have no doubt she beat and killed Tori. The only real question is why? Was it because of a MR plan to kidnap, rape and murder a little girl? Or was it because she felt wronged by TM or JG and was looking to hurt them. Or was it because she fell for MR and wanted to give him a gift, believing that it would tie them together (it worked for Karla). The only reason it matters is because either MR is a child rapist or he is not ... And if he is not then what motive did he have?

could she have change her testimony because she was afraid of MTR (and what he was capable of doing) after witnessing what happened according to her in first confession...MTR was taking her mother places while she was in custody (strange)...her testimony "I love my mother". IMO Is it possible that TLM at some point realized she was in "waaay over her head" or "finally met her match" so to speak and changed her story. IMO TLM was young (18) and likely had stunted maturity due to her lengthy time in detention and some have mentioned possibly a "poser". It is defense job to demonize her to the benefit of MTR. IMO

 

[BorgQueen]

could she have change her testimony because she was afraid of MTR (and what he was capable of doing) after witnessing what happened according to her in first confession...MTR was taking her mother places while she was in custody (strange)...her testimony "I love my mother". IMO Is it possible that TLM at some point realized she was in "waaay over her head" and changed her story. IMO

I personally doubt that. After everything she has been through in her life, I highly doubt she is afraid of MR. Whether or not she was the one that killed Tori, I have absolutely no doubt that she would do absolutely anything, including kill, to protect herself and what she considers hers. She grew up living in fear. She has learned to turn that emotion off, IMO. While normal people feel fear, IMO she feels rage and a violent instinct to protect herself instead.
As I have stated before, it is my opinion that she confessed so she will be put in prison. It is also my opinion that she changed her story (whether the new version is true or not) so she can stay there for her entire sentence, possibly longer. She is where she wants to be, and she is in no danger from MR where she is anyway. Her mother doesn't have long to live, if she is still alive. She isn't in any danger, either.

JMO. :moo:

 

[snoofer]

I personally doubt that. After everything she has been through in her life, I highly doubt she is afraid of MR. Whether or not she was the one that killed Tori, I have absolutely no doubt that she would do absolutely anything, including kill, to protect herself and what she considers hers. She grew up living in fear. She has learned to turn that emotion off, IMO. While normal people feel fear, IMO she feels rage and a violent instinct to protect herself instead.
As I have stated before, it is my opinion that she confessed so she will be put in prison. It is also my opinion that she changed her story (whether the new version is true or not) so she can stay there for her entire sentence, possibly longer. She is where she wants to be, and she is in no danger from MR where she is anyway. Her mother doesn't have long to live, if she is still alive. She isn't in any danger, either.

JMO. :moo:

exactly how would you know that? If one was to believe her frst confession...I could see very well why it could concern her...if while she was in custody....HE was with her mother who she says "she loves". IMO Writing in a journal is not a crime even if it is macabre...I sometimes wonder if it is not the loud one you have to be concerned about...but the quiet ones who have the most to tell. IMO

 

[BorgQueen]

exactly how would you know that? If one was to believe her frst confession...I could see very well why it could concern her...if while she was in custody....HE was with her mother who she says "she loves". IMO Writing in a journal is not a crime even if it is macabre...I sometimes wonder if it is not the loud one you have to be concerned about...but the quiet ones who have the most to tell. IMO

I don't know that. It is just an opinion based on assumption. Right now, MR is in jail. He is not free to harm her mother. If he is found not guilty, and her current version of events has anything to do with that, my opinion would definitely change. But as it stands right now, she is not in danger of being harmed by the accused.

And you're right. The quiet ones are quite concerning. You don't see them coming. TLM talks and postures and makes herself appear threatening. She wants to scare people. She is, in her own messed up way, protecting herself. I have no doubt she would act on it if she had to. Like a dog, her first instinct, when threatened, would be to attack. All her writing and talking and gangster-wannabe-posturing is the equivalent of showing her teeth. "Leave me alone", if you will.
I am basing this opinion based on my personal experience with people very much like TLM (minus the child killing, of course). But it is all just an opinion, and I never claimed to KNOW anything.
:moo:

 

[snoofer]

Umm... question... is TLM at the same jail that her friend, Shipway, is? I ask this because it appears Shipway has internet access (facebook page has recent updates) and this worries me. I really hope McClintic does NOT have access to the internet. Could be very, very bad for this trial... :moo:

geesh...at any other govt place ie schools, work places...they block those sites out...what in heck would corrections be thinking by not blocking them out?:moo:

 

[BorgQueen]

geesh...at any other govt place ie schools, work places...they block those sites out...what in heck would corrections be thinking by not blocking them out?:moo:

That is what I was thinking... unless she has somebody on the outside updating for her.
But not all government places block facebook. TLM used facebook at an employment centre. I did the same recently.

And what the heck would corrections be thinking allowing somebody who is incarcerated because they killed somebody access to a computer at all... yikes.

:moo:

 

[snoofer]

I don't know that. It is just an opinion based on assumption. Right now, MR is in jail. He is not free to harm her mother. If he is found not guilty, and her current version of events has anything to do with that, my opinion would definitely change. But as it stands right now, she is not in danger of being harmed by the accused.

And you're right. The quiet ones are quite concerning. You don't see them coming. TLM talks and postures and makes herself appear threatening. She wants to scare people. She is, in her own messed up way, protecting herself. I have no doubt she would act on it if she had to. Like a dog, her first instinct, when threatened, would be to attack. All her writing and talking and gangster-wannabe-posturing is the equivalent of showing her teeth. "Leave me alone", if you will.I am basing this opinion based on my personal experience with people very much like TLM (minus the child killing, of course). But it is all just an opinion, and I never claimed to KNOW anything.
:moo:

yes and is just my opinion too. :therethere: I really like this analogy. IMO

 

[snoofer]

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

LoL

I would like to hear from someone credible if he had any marks on him the day after. Although Tori was only 8 :rocker: JMO

 

[BorgQueen]

yes and is just my opinion too. :therethere: I really like this analogy. IMO

Hmm... having a quick thought about TLM and fear for her mother... perhaps that is why she decided to implicate MR when she confessed in the first place? Throw him in jail, get him away from her mother? She couldn't physically do anything about it from where she was, so she went against her word to 'take the fall' and spilled the beans about MR? He's not near her mother any more!

One really can't tell what is going on in her mind (and she likely can't tell what is going on in her own mind, either!) :moo:

 

[BorgQueen]

I would like to hear from someone credible if he had any marks on him the day after. Although Tori was only 8 :rocker: JMO

Nails! Many children (including my own) are taught to scratch, bite, and do anything they can to injure their attacker.
If MR is guilty as charged, I really hope that Tori was able to do this, and that DNA was found under her nails, or hair was found on her (from pulling it out).:jail:
:moo:

 

[snoofer]

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/04/19594746.html

Things that make me sigh...in TLM's house photos.

Teddy bears
Looks like Advair puffer asthma medication
Thick dust on TV
Pretty pink laundry basket
Purple guinea pig or rodent cage
Pet bowls
Didn't have much but the bed was made
Pink heart on a black journal book on bed
pastel colored boa scarves

Someone liked "pretty girl colored things"
Details that make one scratch their head in the context of this case.