Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[Maple1]

Finally found video links that will work on my iPad.*

MOO:
I watched the part 2 first. I found watching TLM's walk in to home depot very distinctive. Also, the video is so clear in the home depot store. You clearly see the white jacket with the black stripe detail on the sleeve and hood.
So when I watched the Part 1 video link, I have no doubt that the person walking with Victoria at the school was one and the same, TLM.
Amazing how long a minute can seem in a video.

Crown evidence videos ( last chapter)

Part 1

http://www.torontosun.com/videos/fe...intic-surveillance-video-part-1/1595207792001

Part 2

http://www.torontosun.com/videos/fe...intic-surveillance-video-part-2/1595205607001

There are also other video links.

 

[Alethea Dice]

From Swedie's post above:

McClintic said Rafferty parked in a retirement home lot just down the street, and her plan was to pretend she went looking for a girl to kidnap but would come back empty-handed. But as he slowly drove past her, watching her, she decided she would find a child and walk beside them, but not go any further, she said.

This case has fried my brain, so maybe i've misunderstood something. In TLM's statement above, she indicates MTR drove past her before she took Tori ... i thought it was said at some point that he drove past them? Am i mis-remembering that, or did he drive past twice ... once pre and once post the actual abduction?

You're not mis-remembering. He drove past and was seen on the video at 3:30. TLM and Tori are on the video in the same spot at 3:32. At 3:33 they were in the car and leaving. I think it's safe to assume they were already together when he drove past.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/videos/police-reveal-surveillance-video/1492670165001

I guess it's just another one of her statements that doesn't match the evidence.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

IMO TLM may have been looking for an excuse to get out of the mess she was in. And yes I do believe IF Tori would have said yes, TLM would've taken her in and rescued her. That would have been her deciding point.

If TLM had any desire to change her actions or rescue Tori, she would not have accepted a no from Tori. She would have just taken her by the hand and said come on, let's go. They wouldn't even need to go into Tim Horton's. Any place in the area would have a phone and get them both away from MR.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

JMO...the only reason he was ever with TLM was for his sick plan that he talked TLM into helping him with. He never loved her IMO. Once they returned back to Woodstock, probably seeing a larger number of LE in the city out searching for VS, he dumped her at the variety store....to leave her to walk home, they had no idea if an eyewitness saw TLM walk away with VS or not at this time, so to be safe he did not want to be seen with her or have any connection, he didn't need her anymore. Once the video came out, he bought the hair dye and left it at the hydro pole...again didn't want to be seen associating with her. Once she was in the detention center, he visited to find out what LE had been asking her, what she was saying, he did so to stay on her good side so that she would stick with the plan and take the fall for him if need be..as they had discussed

This is a JMO

That's very possible. It just seems odd that, once he found out she was being questioned, he no longer felt the need to distance himself from her. I would have thought he'd want to stay on her good side right from the beginning.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Geez...........first time I have seen that information.

Is that from a media source?

TIA..

Here is one of the articles that mentions that comment, Ardy.

http://catch21.ca/printArticle/540890

She does know that Terri-Lynne and Tori had met thanks to Carol's two small dogs. Tara McDonald, Tori's mother and James Goris, her boyfriend, were interested in breeding their dog, Cosmo, with her dogs.

But then, she also says that JG never bought drugs from her.

JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Well, the jury could be thinking-here's a guy who had a dozen women he dated state that he mentioned various things such as:
-Tori Stafford herself
-kidnapping a child and how the child could grow up not knowing they were kidnapped
-him KNOWING information about the disappearance of Tori Stafford and who was being questioned in her disappearance.

What else would the jury conclude based on testimony?

-He was addicted to drugs.
-He was needy.
-He was angry that TLM didn't get a younger girl. He mentioned to TLM that younger girls were easier to manipulate and TLM was one of the youngest girls he had on his roster.
-He was not afraid of TLM. He picks her up and grabs her and cracks her back, he wouldn't be overtaken by force by her at all.
-He helped TLM to possibly change her appearance. WHY? Because he is such a good friend? He knew her for 2 months.
-He made changes to his car.
-He was a pimp.
-He was a liar.
-He was in the vicinity of the school several times that day.
-His car was seen at 3:30:56 on Fyfe driving by the CASS camera 6.
-His car was seen at 3:30 on Fyfe entering the Caressant Care Retirement Home Parking Lot.
Because TLM and Tori enter that car at approximately 3:33, it would be assumed MR actively participated in the abduction of Tori Stafford. I feel the jury will come to the same conclusion.
-Also, his phone is off during the time of the rape, murder and clean up.

IMO the imagery of TLM's testimony where the rape is concerned will end up with a guilty verdict on that count. That testimonial imagery makes sense. He started masturbating as he turned in the laneway. That is convincing imagery that makes sense to what was to occur next to Tori. The babbling that occurred afterwards from TLM as to the murder was also graphic, yet was very confusing. I think the jury was also confused. I'm not sure how the jury will deal with that part at all. I'm convinced the facial injuries on Tori were administered by MR. The horn went off and maybe that was Tori signalling to TLM to help her or anyone to help her. That could have gotten MR pretty angry with her, in addition to the fact that Tori was too old and needed to die for being too old since she would definitely talk. There was blood on his bag and it was his blood mixed with Tori's blood. Was he bleeding? Did he cut himself when he was raping Tori? Did he damage his hand after hitting her, possibly, and he started to bleed? Why is MR's blood mixed with Tori's blood in the mesh of his gymbag? I'm sure people can explain away blood being there but really??? There were minute flecks of blood remaining in the material mixed with Tori's blood. How did that happen? Did Tori scratch him, bite him? Who pushed Tori on the ground? Why did Tori get pushed on the ground? The murder charge will be the hardest one for the jury, I'm sure. I know how I would find him though. JMO

Regarding the possibility that MTR punched Tori, she was injured and the blood in the gym bag.

I think what happened is that he hit her, his hand was injured and that is why there was a mixture of the blood in the bag. MTR reached into the bag with the injured hand with Tori's blood on it.

In the end I don't know if it really matters where MTR was bleeding, but I think that is most likely what happened.

 

[Ardy]

Too bad for MR that TLM refuted that suggestion. So his suggestion of what happened can't be considered by the jury. And I think the videos of MR visiting TLM after the crime shows that he was in it just as much as she was.

Derstine didn't ask any questions he didn't already know the answer to.......and he wanted TLM to put her testimony on the record...........so he could show evidence later that she lied during her testimony.

He will now concentrate on the answers she gave that can be challenged by other, more credible witnesses..........such as the grandmother who contradicts TLM's testimony on the abduction.

Derstine didn't have the budget or manpower to match the multi-million dollar Crown investigation, in order to fully explore and develop an alternative theory.

So he does what defense lawyers do, when they are fighting against the better funded and more powerful Crown.

He will raise all the issues that contribute to reasonable doubt he can.

As to the issue of not presenting scientific experts........why would the defense present more experts, when the Crown experts both testified there was no proof of a sexual assault.......let alone one committed by MR?

The defense brings in experts to refute Crown expert testimony, but there is nothing to refute. It doesn't get any stronger than that for the defense side.

JMO.............

 

[Ardy]

Why were her shoes, skirt, and coat removed? If she'd had an accident, logic would say only her pannies and tights should have been removed, her shoes should have been put back on, and she should have had her skirt and coat on as well.

An "accident" is only speculation.

TLM could have ripped them off in anger, trying to pull TS out of the car.

TLM could have removed them after the murder to use them to clean up the mess.

TLM could have removed them to humiliate TS.

Who knows what went through the soggy, drug saturated mind of a sociopath like TLM?

Only TLM and MR know when the clothing was removed, and I suspect their explanations would differ greatly.

JMO........

 

[Ardy]

MR's blood mixed with TS blood in the gym bag?

MR could have cut his hand on the sharp edge of one of the rocks he was carrying around, and had his blood mixed with TS blood when he reached into the gym bag.

JMO..............

 

[Ardy]

Here is one of the articles that mentions that comment, Ardy.

http://catch21.ca/printArticle/540890



But then, she also says that JG never bought drugs from her.

JMO

So, according to CM.......TLM did know TS prior to the abduction.

Also interesting that CM claims JG didn't buy drugs from her, and it does make sense that she needs them for herself. If she sells them......she would have to buy more at street prices or go without. Going without isn't an option for an oxy addict and very sick woman.

The claims are that CM sold the drugs to TM and JB.........but what if it was TLM who was conducting the drug sales out of CM's house?

Maybe it wasn't CM's prescription drugs that were being sold.......but drugs that TLM had secured for her own sales. She did seem to have connections to get drugs for MR whenever he wanted some.

In that scenario.......a drug debt could very well have not been to CM.....but somebody who had given TLM the drugs on consignment and held her responsible for the debt.

TLM could have been stuck in the middle of a bad situation.

JMO...........

 

[Alison]

MR's blood mixed with TS blood in the gym bag?

MR could have cut his hand on the sharp edge of one of the rocks he was carrying around, and had his blood mixed with TS blood when he reached into the gym bag.

JMO..............

Lots of coulds Ardy......... lots of coulds.

The facts are a little girl is dead, he was there, (he is not even refuting this) and he should be held responsible. No way anyone slices or dices it, TLM or MR should never, ever, walk the streets a free person again. Period.

 

[Ardy]

Lots of coulds Ardy......... lots of coulds.

The facts are a little girl is dead, he was there, (he is not even refuting this) and he should be held responsible. No way anyone slices or dices it, TLM or MR should never, ever, walk the streets a free person again. Period.

Too many "coulds" and the threshold of beyond a reasonable doubt becomes increasingly harder to achieve.

It seems to me the Crown had their case all set after 3 years of work, only to have TLM confess to the murder just before the trial started, leaving the Crown with a lot of loose ends in their case, at a point too late to tie them all up.

The defense will be only too happy to inject some doubt into the spaces left open by the Crown's case.

Not to blame the Crown.........they had no control over TLM. Perhaps they could have asked for more time..........but the clock may have been ticking on the right of the accused to a trial

It had already been almost 3 years, and a lengthy delay may have breached the accused Charter rights.

JMO..........

 

[Tahorn]

Just watched the video of the HD parking lot.
1. MR pulled into the closest spot open, beside other cars
2. Got out of car and walked past someone, did not look back.
3. MR last phone activity was 6 minutes before TLM left the store.

I wonder if that was when MR figured out VS was not being baby sat.

Seems that he was in a rush to leave ... And a little distracted while leaving ...

Does anyone know what the 5:03 call was?

 

[Ardy]

I believe the drugs were for her ...

That could be to...........

At $40 dollars a pill......that is only 450 pills or so, or 1-2 a day roughly.

JMO.............

 

[Ardy]

Just watched the video of the HD parking lot.
1. MR pulled into the closest spot open, beside other cars
2. Got out of car and walked past someone, did not look back.
3. MR last phone activity was 6 minutes before TLM left the store.

I wonder if that was when MR figured out VS was not being baby sat.

Seems that he was in a rush to leave ... And a little distracted while leaving ...

Does anyone know what the 5:03 call was?

Good pickup............

RS even referred to MR's driving out of the HD lot.......when he said MR almost got into an accident.......and TS may have been saved had an accident occurred.

MR did drive out like he was distracted.

Maybe he found out VS was missing from that call?

JMO..........

 

[Ardy]

MR used people ... he didn't have relationships. He used them and moved on. The escort woman is a good example of how he used women. He used TLM because he could. I suspect that MR believed that if TLM lured a child and committed the murder, then he would not face the same charges.

He wasn't going to be able to move on after bringing TLM along as a witness.

He would be tied to her forever and fearful she would talk.

IMO he visited her in Genest in the hopes she wouldn't falsely accuse him of murdering TS......which she did proceed to do.

MR didn't need TLM if he wanted to kidnap a child.

Why would he entrust her with his life?

JMO..........

 

[Ardy]

If TLM had any desire to change her actions or rescue Tori, she would not have accepted a no from Tori. She would have just taken her by the hand and said come on, let's go. They wouldn't even need to go into Tim Horton's. Any place in the area would have a phone and get them both away from MR.

JMO

There were probably lots of other people around at that time of day........TLM didn't even have to take TS anywhere but outside the car.........in the parking lot......on the sidewalk.

What could MR do about it........drag them into the car in front of everyone?

TLM has been all around the criminal system her whole life.

She knows what people want to hear.........and she feeds it to them.

She deftly alternates between the "it's not my fault......somebody made me do it" mode to the "i don't know why I did that" to the "perhaps because of my bad childhood memories" to "I am the compassionate one here" and often to her old standby.........."that was then...I am different now".

All as predictable as the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning.

She is sitting in a jail cell............or maybe in the lounge, knowing her manipulating is still causing problems for a lot of people...........and laughing about it.

And so her miserable life goes on, pleading not guilty to a charge of assault which would mean absolutely nothing to her sentence, but gets her out of the house once in awhile.

I can hear it all now......"I don't know why I beat the girl that day" "I was having flashbacks of my bad childhood" and of course her fave, "that was months ago......i am a different person now".

JMO...........

 

[swedie]

They appear to both be on the west side of the street. TLM and Tori pass behind the witness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY6GQVJz3HE&feature=related

And at no time do we see a vehicle heading north on Fyfe Avenue during Tori and TLM's walk. Only as they entered the CCNH parking lot do we see a vehicle go by. That would be too late for someone to see a stern look on someone's face or to hear them chatting in up. Granny claimed she passed by them on Fyfe Avenue. She also testified the woman in the white puffy coat was not carrying a purse but according to TLM she was, and it's apparent in the video. TLM also stated that the tassel of her purse got caught in the car door and ripped off in CCNH parking lot. I bet Granny got the wrong day. MOO

 

[snoofer]

He wasn't going to be able to move on after bringing TLM along as a witness.

He would be tied to her forever and fearful she would talk.

IMO he visited her in Genest in the hopes she wouldn't falsely accuse him of murdering TS......which she did proceed to do.

MR didn't need TLM if he wanted to kidnap a child.

Why would he entrust her with his life?

JMO..........

that will be one of the questions that will haunt him for the rest of his days in prison. HIS choices come back to haunt him. Good on him!!!!!!!!!!!!! MOO Prisons are full of those who bang their heads daily on their cells, wondering why they did that one stupid thing that got them caught. MOO

 

[snoofer]

There were probably lots of other people around at that time of day........TLM didn't even have to take TS anywhere but outside the car.........in the parking lot......on the sidewalk.

What could MR do about it........drag them into the car in front of everyone?

TLM has been all around the criminal system her whole life.

She knows what people want to hear.........and she feeds it to them.

She deftly alternates between the "it's not my fault......somebody made me do it" mode to the "i don't know why I did that" to the "perhaps because of my bad childhood memories" to "I am the compassionate one here" and often to her old standby.........."that was then...I am different now".

All as predictable as the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning.

She is sitting in a jail cell............or maybe in the lounge, knowing her manipulating is still causing problems for a lot of people...........and laughing about it.

And so her miserable life goes on, pleading not guilty to a charge of assault which would mean absolutely nothing to her sentence, but gets her out of the house once in awhile.

I can hear it all now......"I don't know why I beat the girl that day" "I was having flashbacks of my bad childhood" and of course her fave, "that was months ago......i am a different person now".

JMO...........

not believing the flashbacks thing. As TLM bought the hammer long before the flashbacks started. IMO