Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[Bravo]

Is court back in Monday or Tuesday?

Monday

 

[snoofer]

I have been following along but have not posted in this forum. Here are my two cents worth!!

I have concluded that Tori would still be alive if MR was not involved.

In my opinion the crime would not have been committed without his car, without the drugs, without him paying for the hammer and garbage bags, without him driving to a remote location.

I am not 100% sure just what happened there but from everything presented I have concluded that TLM did not do this on her own!!

yes agree as i think it is ludicrous to think that TLM bummed a ride to kidnap and kill a child unbeknownst to the driver. MOO

 

[flipflop]

BBM 1: The truth is free.

BBM 2: In this case, if TLM's testimony were not present, the Crown would not have MTR's cell pings.

If the Crown did not have MTR's cell pings, LE may not have found Victoria's remains.

There is no denying MTR is involved.

JMO

Why wouldn't they have his cell pings? LE was onto MR from others besides TLM.

 

[Tahorn]

This is all MOO....
He involved TLM to place the blame on her... TLM was the one to go to the school and take VS, visible for all to see....notice how MR parked out of the way. MR withdrew money before they went to HD, notice how he didn't want a paper trail with his ATM card at HD. TLM went in to buy the hammer and garbage bags....notice how MR stayed in his car away from the front of the store. MR thought he had a perfect plan, to keep himself out of the limelight and TLM in it.

I believe that MR involved TLM as it would be easy to blame her for this crime as she has the past that fits the bill. Again, this is all MOO.

Not involving TLM, he would have no need to explain anything, for no one would be alive to testify. The LE would not have known about HD, petrocan or TH ... Involving her just so he had someone to blame is not logical, especially if it was a sexual assault ... Like I said before kidnapping for money I believe, both had something to gain ... Rape, TLM gained nothing making her a liability ... JMO

 

[crazyladi]

Just out of curiosity for those that think the <modsnip> is not guilty, what part of TLM's testimony are you choosing to believe and what are you not?

I am trying hard to believe that this guy is innocent.

<modsnip>.

In the end the judge said it didnt matter who wielded the hammer, they are to determine if they acted together. The fact of the matter is that they did it together and that is plain and clear.

Abduction yes
Rape yes but most people are unsure
Murder yes

So If there was an abduction, why did it happen? When its a child its usually rape, especially when the child is killed within hours of an abduction. So without the rape why was she killed? Why abduct her in the first place?

Get rid of the drug debt, babysitting theories, tori peeing her pants and him being an innocent dupe and convince me he didnt rape her and I will think about his innocence. Other than that there is nothing that can convince me that he didnt rape her.

Nothing that has been said about his innocence has convinced me enough <modsnip>. JMO

 

[flipflop]

Not involving TLM, he would have no need to explain anything, for no one would be alive to testify. The LE would not have known about HD, petrocan or TH ... Involving her just so he had someone to blame is not logical, especially if it was a sexual assault ... Like I said before kidnapping for money I believe, both had something to gain ... Rape, TLM gained nothing making her a liability ... JMO

MOO
Anything that TLM and MR did regarding this case is not logical. Murdering a child is not logical, kidnapping a child is not logical, etc etc. MR seems to be lacking some intellegence....I would not expect him to think logically. He seems to be the type to blame others for anything going on in his life, so I feel that he could not do this crime alone, as there is no one else to blame.
Once again, this is all MOO.

 

[Macright]

MTR had all kinds of free time in prison to write up what he wanted his defense to present for him ie where the hammer was so he could proove it was not his prints on it for example. He could have thought of all kinds of stuff IF he was innocent. The trouble becomes when if he is not innocent. Then yes MTR would have a difficult time coming up with info for his defense. MOO

We shall see tomorrow what defense has to say for MTR. MOO

IMO we know nothing, zilch what MR told his lawyer..his lawyer has not given his closing statement as yet the fact that he did not take the stand means dilly squat to me.. I have heard nothing from the defence as yet to what MR will be using as a defence...but from what I have heard so far from the crown..well lets just say if MR is found quilty on some of that evidence then there is something wrong with our system.. I don't expect a video of the actual murder etc.. but I would have expected some concrete evidence that a crime was about to take place.... seeing video's of MR in a car proves nothing to me...seeing TLM walking with TS and a witness testifying that she did indeed see her enter the school and then walking with TS and of course witness #2 that also saw her means a lot to me...TLM and her tall tale of what transpired and what role each played means nothing to me...TLM confessing to be the murderer means something to me....just saying...MOO but I am not judge or jury at this trial but I do hope that there will be a couple on that jury that will question things as I have...I would like to think that....JMO

 

[Tahorn]

Just out of curiosity for those that think <modsnip> is not guilty, what part of TLM's testimony are you choosing to believe and what are you not?

I am trying hard to believe that this guy is innocent.

<modsnip>.

In the end the judge said it didnt matter who wielded the hammer, they are to determine if they acted together. The fact of the matter is that they did it together and that is plain and clear.

Abduction yes
Rape yes but most people are unsure
Murder yes

So If there was an abduction, why did it happen? When its a child its usually rape, especially when the child is killed within hours of an abduction. So without the rape why was she killed? Why abduct her in the first place?

Get rid of the drug debt, babysitting theories, tori peeing her pants and him being an innocent dupe and convince me he didnt rape her and I will think about his innocence. Other than that there is nothing that can convince me that he didnt rape her.

Nothing that has been said about his innocence has convinced me enough <modsnip>. JMO

I honestly do not think anyone believes MR is innocent, just not guilty of controlling TLM into stealing a child for his sexual desires.

As for why TLM would do anything, well that is the million dollar question ... Why microwave a dog? Why write about walking up to the first person she saw and smashing their head in?Why write about being blood thirsty after VS was killed? Why change her testimony on who's idea it was to by the hammer?why change her testimony about killing VS? And so on and so on

For me the answer is quite simple ... Cause she thought it was a could idea at the time ...

 

[Macright]

MOO
Anything that TLM and MR did regarding this case is not logical. Murdering a child is not logical, kidnapping a child is not logical, etc etc. MR seems to be lacking some intellegence....I would not expect him to think logically. He seems to be the type to blame others for anything going on in his life, so I feel that he could not do this crime alone, as there is no one else to blame.
Once again, this is all MOO.

IMO a lot of the horrific murders of young children that have taken place both in the US and Canada were not committed by people of high intelligence...I agree MR does not seem to be highly intelligent but on saying that I would assume he does have some form of intelligence or some knack to be able to get all those young ladies to fall for him...just saying....JMO JMO JMO JMO

 

[Macright]

<modsnip>


I myself am having no trouble believing that MR is not innocent...I think he is guilty of certain parts of this but not all...I would never consider to state that he is innocent of all charges...if that were so than I would question my own sanity and intelligence... BUT I do not think he is guilty of all the charges that he stands charged with...to me that is a big difference...I would be surprised to read that anyone thinks he is totally innocent....JMO JMO JMO

 

[Macright]

I thought this was a fairly good article by BA...I don't agree with all of the article but certain statement I thought were right to the point.... just saying...JMO it shows just how much TLM & TS's lives were interwoven..


http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/04/02/a-canadian-tragedy-fit-for-chekhov/

 

[Tahorn]

MOO
Anything that TLM and MR did regarding this case is not logical. Murdering a child is not logical, kidnapping a child is not logical, etc etc. MR seems to be lacking some intellegence....I would not expect him to think logically. He seems to be the type to blame others for anything going on in his life, so I feel that he could not do this crime alone, as there is no one else to blame.
Once again, this is all MOO.

Agreed that it is not logical to do any of that, but human nature is still relevant. Criminals committing crimes in partnership do so with a knowledge each is just as culpable, therefore trusting the other would not turn the other in ... Gang members are forced to commit crimes to insure there loyalty, mobs control there members with fear of death for crossing them, rats are the worst of the worst, while killing someone is acceptable ... I don't believe things happened the way the crown presented it ... Not saying he is innocent ... Just don't believe it happened the way the LE presented, and that is the question the jury is presented ... For me Human nature for self preservation trumps

 

[roseofsharon]

IMO we know nothing, zilch what MR told his lawyer..his lawyer has not given his closing statement as yet the fact that he did not take the stand means dilly squat to me.. I have heard nothing from the defence as yet to what MR will be using as a defence...but from what I have heard so far from the crown..well lets just say if MR is found quilty on some of that evidence then there is something wrong with our system.. I don't expect a video of the actual murder etc.. but I would have expected some concrete evidence that a crime was about to take place.... seeing video's of MR in a car proves nothing to me...seeing TLM walking with TS and a witness testifying that she did indeed see her enter the school and then walking with TS and of course witness #2 that also saw her means a lot to me...TLM and her tall tale of what transpired and what role each played means nothing to me...TLM confessing to be the murderer means something to me....just saying...MOO but I am not judge or jury at this trial but I do hope that there will be a couple on that jury that will question things as I have...I would like to think that....JMO

You left something out ... what about bagging and burying a murdered child naked from the waist down under a pile of rocks. What does this mean ... that he was just a caring, considerate guy helping out a friend?
MOO

 

[Alison]

Just out of curiosity for those that think the innocent dupe is not guilty, what part of TLM's testimony are you choosing to believe and what are you not?

I am trying hard to believe that this guy is innocent.

I find some of the posts utterly ridiculous as if his actions are being justified.

In the end the judge said it didnt matter who wielded the hammer, they are to determine if they acted together. The fact of the matter is that they did it together and that is plain and clear.

Abduction yes
Rape yes but most people are unsure
Murder yes

So If there was an abduction, why did it happen? When its a child its usually rape, especially when the child is killed within hours of an abduction. So without the rape why was she killed? Why abduct her in the first place?

Get rid of the drug debt, babysitting theories, tori peeing her pants and him being an innocent dupe and convince me he didnt rape her and I will think about his innocence. Other than that there is nothing that can convince me that he didnt rape her.

Nothing that has been said about his innocence has convinced me enough because I find it utterly ridiculous these theories are even being brought up. JMO

Yes I am having a hard time with some of this as well. I have tried to behave because I enjoy this website. Sometimes I do get caught up however, I move on and just try to reason with myself about others reasoning. It is quite frustrating though, when you can clearly see that the sky is blue and someone wil argue that it is green etc.

 

[Wondergirl]

Why wouldn't they have his cell pings? LE was onto MR from others besides TLM.

Thanks, FlipFlop, you are right. TLM's neighbours. They have been under the radar during the trial. I forgot about them. Whomever else might have reported MTR for whatever reason. We may never know that.

 

[otto]

I don't understand why VS wouldn't have taking the offer to go to the washroom when TLM asked her. Makes me think VS didn't feel in danger yet. ????

It makes me think that TLM is lying - trying to make others believe that she cared.

 

[Macright]

You left something out ... what about bagging and burying a murdered child naked from the waist down under a pile of rocks. What does this mean ... that he was just a caring, considerate guy helping out a friend?
MOO

respectfully...are you asking me a question or are you suggesting I consider MR a caring considerate person or are you just making your own statement... ...otherwise I don't believe I left anything out...JMO

 

[otto]

That is just as speculative as saying TLM removed her clothing because of an "accident".

Both are speculative and not supported by any evidence.

There "could" be lots of other explanations.

As there is no supporting evidence to support any theory......I think it likely the Judge will inform the jury to disregard it in their deliberations.

JMO.............

Do kidnapped 8 year old girls normally strip off all their clothes below the waist for any reason? I think not.

 

[Alison]

Agreed that it is not logical to do any of that, but human nature is still relevant. Criminals committing crimes in partnership do so with a knowledge each is just as culpable, therefore trusting the other would not turn the other in ... Gang members are forced to commit crimes to insure there loyalty, mobs control there members with fear of death for crossing them, rats are the worst of the worst, while killing someone is acceptable ... I don't believe things happened the way the crown presented it ... Not saying he is innocent ... Just don't believe it happened the way the LE presented, and that is the question the jury is presented ... For me Human nature for self preservation trumps

Actually TLM was not going to turn him in. He went to far when he said she would do anything for a little bit of love. His arrogance cost him the trust of his partner.JMO
I also want to address his needing TLM as a partner. Well he surely was not going to be the one to take the risk of approaching the school to kidnap a little girl. No one really looked twice when it was TLM, but I bet you many would have noticed him leaving with TS. He also got TLM to enter into HD and purchase the hammer and garbage bags. The only places he got out was, Timmies and at an ATM. Both places very non-conspicuos. Coffee can not be a murder weapon, so therefore he took that risk. Also at BA's he had to follow through, he certainly was not going to send TLM in and be stuck with the kid in case a cruiser pulled up. He also trusted TLM to keep the kid quiet while he made the deal. Therefore he very much needed to have a partner. Also he needed someone to experience it with. Someone to talk about it with after and feel the rush with. Also he is a coward who needed someone else to do the deed with.
All of this is JMO.

 

[flipflop]

IMO a lot of the horrific murders of young children that have taken place both in the US and Canada were not committed by people of high intelligence...I agree MR does not seem to be highly intelligent but on saying that I would assume he does have some form of intelligence or some knack to be able to get all those young ladies to fall for him...just saying....JMO JMO JMO JMO

Yes MR did have a knack for pulling the wool over others eyes, he said all the right things to make himself sound like a good catch. JMO