Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[maxfactor]

The Crown didn't call 2 eye witnesses to the trial?

Weird..............

It is true there is lots of information contained in MSM articles, that wasn't testified to in the trial..........and only some of those have been referred to on the form..............but eye witness testimony to an abduction would be considerably more important...........in my opinion.

JMO

I believe the grandfather saw Tori before she was with TLM, so he wouldn't be considered an eye witness to the crime. You're right that a lot of information contained in MSM hasn't been brought up at trial. I think the defense has argued to keep a lot of information out, hence a great deal of legal arguments. I remember a lot of things we found out that IMO go to motive, those things also went to character and were not admissible in court. IMO a lot of nasty details are going to come out when the jury deliberates.

 

[Heliotrope]

They were a simple hook-in earring which take only a split second to put on .. could be the teacher saw her put them in her pocket and when the teacher wasn't looking, Tori put them on.

She obviously placed importance on them for her to have returned to her desk to retrieve them. I also agree with the other suggestions that it is very possible she wanted to be wearing something of mommy's for comfort ... or early in the ride, put them on so she wouldn't lose them.

JMO

Does anyone know, when her teacher testified about saying goodbye for the day, was it from the classroom or the doorway to the outside? My son's experience at that age was that they just say goodbye, and the kids leave while the teacher finishes up business at her desk. I've always seen JK / SK teachers walk them to the bus & parent meet-up area but I think after that, they don't generally walk them out anymore.

She ran back for her earrings, but where was her teacher when she allowed to go back and when she ultimately said goodbye for the day? Anyone remember?

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Does anyone know, when her teacher testified about saying goodbye for the day, was it from the classroom or the doorway to the outside? My son's experience at that age was that they just say goodbye, and the kids leave while the teacher finishes up business at her desk. I've always seen JK / SK teachers walk them to the bus & parent meet-up area but I think after that, they don't generally walk them out anymore.

She ran back for her earrings, but where was her teacher when she allowed to go back and when she ultimately said goodbye for the day? Anyone remember?

The snippet I posted above says that the kids were lined up when TS asked to get her earrings, so I assume they were lined at the door leading outside. When she came back the kids had left because the bell had already rung.

 

[Ardy]

They stopped at a Tim Hortons in Guelph and Rafferty got out of the car, asking McClintic if she wanted anything. While Rafferty was away, McClintic says she asked Tori if she needed to use the washroom but the eight-year-old said she didn't want anything. When Rafferty returned, he got angry and told McClintic to cover the girl. McClintic says she mouthed the words "I'm sorry" to Tori.

http://live.cbc.ca/Event/Stafford_murder_trial_5

So.........TLM testified that they pushed VS into the car, kidnapped her and she was held on the floor, under a pea coat all the way to Guelph while MR was frantically scanning the radio for police reports, then they stop at Tim Hortons and while MR is out of the car.........TLM asks VS if she wants to go into the Tim Hortons to take a pee..........and she says NO?

That doesn't even make sense.

Why would VS say no? Of course she would want to go in, so that she could get away from them.

Yet another slip by TLM that VS was kidnapped...........or was she just plain lying once again on the stand?

JMO.................

 

[crazyladi]

I have been meaning tO ask this question but keep on forgetting.

When Tlm was on the stand what was she talking about when he mouthed the words "liar"?

 

[Macright]

They stopped at a Tim Hortons in Guelph and Rafferty got out of the car, asking McClintic if she wanted anything. While Rafferty was away, McClintic says she asked Tori if she needed to use the washroom but the eight-year-old said she didn't want anything. When Rafferty returned, he got angry and told McClintic to cover the girl. McClintic says she mouthed the words "I'm sorry" to Tori.

http://live.cbc.ca/Event/Stafford_murder_trial_5

So.........TLM testified that they pushed VS into the car, kidnapped her and she was held on the floor, under a pea coat all the way to Guelph while MR was frantically scanning the radio for police reports, then they stop at Tim Hortons and while MR is out of the car.........TLM asks VS if she wants to go into the Tim Hortons to take a pee..........and she says NO?

That doesn't even make sense.

Why would VS say no? Of course she would want to go in, so that she could get away from them.

Yet another slip by TLM that VS was kidnapped...........or was she just plain lying once again on the stand?

JMO.................

IMO TLM is a liar through and through...she makes things up as she goes along..that is the reason things don't make sense to the average sane person...Tori was eight years old, still a child but I think Tori was a little advanced for her age...IF TLM had suggested bathroom run to Tori I am sure Tori would have jumped the chance for it...I am sure if her mother had warned her about strangers etc. one of the things she would have told her to do was scream as loud as she could... so that is why I don't believe a thing that evil Bi*** says when she tries to cover her cruel treatment of Tori... JMO as far as the grandfather and his tale about Tori...that also is in his dreams...otherwise the crown would have jumped on that one...I would say if there was any truth to it the crown would have had him in that seat in a New York minute.... JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

They stopped at a Tim Hortons in Guelph and Rafferty got out of the car, asking McClintic if she wanted anything. While Rafferty was away, McClintic says she asked Tori if she needed to use the washroom but the eight-year-old said she didn't want anything. When Rafferty returned, he got angry and told McClintic to cover the girl. McClintic says she mouthed the words "I'm sorry" to Tori.

http://live.cbc.ca/Event/Stafford_murder_trial_5

So.........TLM testified that they pushed VS into the car, kidnapped her and she was held on the floor, under a pea coat all the way to Guelph while MR was frantically scanning the radio for police reports, then they stop at Tim Hortons and while MR is out of the car.........TLM asks VS if she wants to go into the Tim Hortons to take a pee..........and she says NO?

That doesn't even make sense.

Why would VS say no? Of course she would want to go in, so that she could get away from them.

Yet another slip by TLM that VS was kidnapped...........or was she just plain lying once again on the stand?

JMO.................

I think maybe TLM is making herself sound like she tried to help TS, but I doubt she did any of that. They knew exactly what they were going to do with TS after their drug stop. But first they had to stop and get the hammer.

 

[justicefortori]

I think the theory put out by one of our posters a few days ago, that TLM "knew of" Tori is very plausible. TLM had met TM and it is possible that somewhere in a conversation the fact that TM had children came up - just in passing. TM also lived within a few blocks of TLM, so it is possible that TLM saw TM with the kids at one point in time.

I think it was this familarity that led TLM to Tori. I don't think she "knew" her, but I do think she knew who she was.

Even if TLM admitted that she knew Tori - I don't think that would erase the kidnapping for rape motive. If MR told her to get a child, and TLM "knew of" Tori, TLM would be more comfortable approaching Tori, than a stange child. TLM knew about the dogs and knew she could use that as a conversation starter with this particular child. TLM also knew if someone saw her, she could just say they were talking about the dogs. I really think this provided some level of comfort to TLM, allowing her to go through with the plan to take a child. I also think that MR knew some of this information and I don't doubt that he may have mentioned it to TLM to assure her it would be easy.... and no worries if someone saw her.

If MR was not a part of this - please explain how his blood was mixed with Tori's. Also, please explain how MR's blood, TLM's blood and Tori's blood were all mixed together. I understand the position about the semen mixed with the blood and it is my firm belief that the semen is MR's, in his car, and that, to me, when combined with the other evidence that has been presented, confirms MR's sexual assault of Tori.

I would be very interested to hear the theories of how all three got their blood all mixed up.

Salem

My beliefs 100%.

 

[Alethea Dice]

They stopped at a Tim Hortons in Guelph and Rafferty got out of the car, asking McClintic if she wanted anything. While Rafferty was away, McClintic says she asked Tori if she needed to use the washroom but the eight-year-old said she didn't want anything. When Rafferty returned, he got angry and told McClintic to cover the girl. McClintic says she mouthed the words "I'm sorry" to Tori.

http://live.cbc.ca/Event/Stafford_murder_trial_5

So.........TLM testified that they pushed VS into the car, kidnapped her and she was held on the floor, under a pea coat all the way to Guelph while MR was frantically scanning the radio for police reports, then they stop at Tim Hortons and while MR is out of the car.........TLM asks VS if she wants to go into the Tim Hortons to take a pee..........and she says NO?

That doesn't even make sense.

Why would VS say no? Of course she would want to go in, so that she could get away from them.

Yet another slip by TLM that VS was kidnapped...........or was she just plain lying once again on the stand?

JMO.................

That tweet doesn't even make sense. She asked if she needed to use the washroom, but Tori said "she didn't want anything". Did she ask about the washroom or did she ask if Tori wanted anything?

 

[tmhco]

IMO TLM is a liar through and through...she makes things up as she goes along..that is the reason things don't make sense to the average sane person...Tori was eight years old, still a child but I think Tori was a little advanced for her age...IF TLM had suggested bathroom run to Tori I am sure Tori would have jumped the chance for it...I am sure if her mother had warned her about strangers etc. one of the things she would have told her to do was scream as loud as she could... so that is why I don't believe a thing that evil Bi*** says when she tries to cover her cruel treatment of Tori... JMO as far as the grandfather and his tale about Tori...that also is in his dreams...otherwise the crown would have jumped on that one...I would say if there was any truth to it the crown would have had him in that seat in a New York minute.... JMO

The teacher testified she left school what would be the purpose of putting the grandfather on the stand? LE was not convinced the grandmother saw TLM. JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

They stopped at a Tim Hortons in Guelph and Rafferty got out of the car, asking McClintic if she wanted anything. While Rafferty was away, McClintic says she asked Tori if she needed to use the washroom but the eight-year-old said she didn't want anything. When Rafferty returned, he got angry and told McClintic to cover the girl. McClintic says she mouthed the words "I'm sorry" to Tori.

http://live.cbc.ca/Event/Stafford_murder_trial_5

So.........TLM testified that they pushed VS into the car, kidnapped her and she was held on the floor, under a pea coat all the way to Guelph while MR was frantically scanning the radio for police reports, then they stop at Tim Hortons and while MR is out of the car.........TLM asks VS if she wants to go into the Tim Hortons to take a pee..........and she says NO?

That doesn't even make sense.

Why would VS say no? Of course she would want to go in, so that she could get away from them.

Yet another slip by TLM that VS was kidnapped...........or was she just plain lying once again on the stand?

JMO.................

I see that as Tori not wanting to be with MTR. He was going into TM, so she stayed in the car.

I think at that point TLM was manipulating Tori into feeling safe, so i think MTR scared her more.

That is just my opinion, I can't imagine what was going through her mind at that point. She was a little girl and probably scared to death, maybe in shock and not full understanding what was happening to her.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I have been meaning tO ask this question but keep on forgetting.

When Tlm was on the stand what was she talking about when he mouthed the words "liar"?

I thought this had been asked before. It was when she was talking about cleaning the car.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReplyDuring McClintic's testimony about cleaning the car, Rafferty mouthed the word "liar". Lots of reaction from him today.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

For the person who was asking what TLM was testifying to when MTR 'mouthed' liar.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic appeared in court. She was set to be released in June on the original charges. He told her, "you know I love you, right?"

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty discussed the two of them running from the jail, said they could "be the next Bonnie and Clyde" Rafferty mouths "Wow."

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
During McClintic's testimony about cleaning the car, Rafferty mouthed the word "liar". Lots of reaction from him today.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Also, we're looking at it with all the wisdom of retrospect - we know there was no missing persons report made until around 6pm. They didn't know that. I bet their hands were shaking with adrenaline when they were heading East on the 401, I bet they could hardly believe they went through with it.

For all they knew at the time, someone could have spotted her being pushed into the car and called police.

They had to get far away as quickly as possible. When nothing was heard on the radio, I assume they thought they'd gotten away with it and started to relax.

If this were the case, you would think they'd want to finish as soon as they were out of the area and leave their errands until afterwards. Why risk even more time to allow for that radio report and the chance of being caught with her in the car.

JMO

 

[Ardy]

I read somewhere that TLM said they got rid of their clothes at the car wash.......and then read somewhere else she said they threw them out the window while driving down the 401

I am thinking we are getting all kinds of bad reporting and it is hard to tell if we are even discussing the same things as the jury will deliberate.

This system of informing the public is a joke.........

JMO.......

 

[crazyladi]

I thought the clothes were thrown out at the car wash but the shoes and back seat pieces were thrown out the window on the 401. You are telling me no one saw someone throw shoes out the window on the 401 even if it was dark???

 

[Alethea Dice]

2) I don't recall anywhere where it says MR had no shoes on during the rape. IIRC he did throw his shoes out along the roadway and it seems the woman who found TLM's shoes also found one of MR's shoes.

Snipped for space

Do you have a link for this please? I don't remember reading in any of the tweets or MSM reports that they had found one of his tossed out shoes. I'm astonished that, if the woman had in fact found one of MR's shoes, it wouldn't have been placed in evidence.

 

[Alison]

The defence seemed odd to many, however it does not seem odd to me. I would bet my last dollar that they could only afford this one witness, as this witness could not testify to MR's character. Anyone else brought forward to testify for him could have possibly opened the whole character issue and I believe this would have put the final nail in MR's coffin. I say this because his lawyer has fought very hard for evidence to be excluded based on it being related to character. The defence would open a door that they fought so hard to keep shut. Makes you wonder what kind of bombshells we are going to hear when the jury is sequestered. JMO

 

[Ardy]

Maybe TLM was having flashbacks and hallucinations and can't separate reality from her distorted memories of that day.

Maybe the sexual assault was TLM projecting herself back into a time in her young life.........she did mention something to that affect.

She also claimed MR made some strange comment to VS about doing this before.......or something similar.

I am sure the jury is going to wrestle with TLM's ability to tell the truth, both from a memory standpoint and an honesty standpoint.

It would be hard to imagine a Crown having as his key witness someone the likes of TLM.

JMO.......

 

[snoofer]

Where is everybody? <modsnip>, lol? Or is everyone else trying to catch up, like me?

was fishing all day; just catching up now. MOO